Keldermans, Raymond - Interview and Memoir

              University of Illinois at Springfield 
Norris L Brookens Library 
Archives/Special Collections 
Raymond Keldermans Memoir 
K276. Keldermans, Raymond (ca. 1911-1984) 
Interview and memoir  
1 tape, 38 mins., 25 pp. 

Keldermans, a native of Belgium and carillonneur for the Thomas Rees Memoiral 
Carillon in Springfield's Washington Park, discusses his musical education in 
Europe; a carillon's construction, casting bells, sound quality and maintenance; 
playing styles and techniques; composing; effects of WWII on the carillons of 
Europe; history of the instrument; Thomas Rees, Springfield's carillon, and the 
yearly festival; and master carillonneurs.  

Interview by John Bucari, 1975 
OPEN 
See collateral file: interviewer's notes, photos, program of the inaugural Carillon 
Festival at Concordia Seminary in St. Louis, and brochures about carillons.  

Archives/Special Collections LIB 144 
University of Illinois at Springfield 
One University Plaza, MS BRK 140 
Springfield IL 62703-5407 

© 1975, University of Illinois Board of Trustees 
Raymond Keldermans 
Preface 
This manuscript is the product of a tape recorded interview conducted by John Buccari for the Oral History Office in the spring of 1975. Susan Jones edited the transcript. 
Raymond Keldermans is the carilloneur for Thomas Rees Memorial Carillon in Washington Park, Springfield, Illinois. He is also an organist, choir director, and composer. 
In this memoir, he talks about his musical education in Mechelen, Belgium, and his studies in Berlin, Leipzig, and Graz, Austria. He discusses how carillons are made and the techniques for playing. He also talks about several master carilloneurs, and the effect World War II had on European carillons. The history of Springfield's carillon and the yearly carillon festival are included. 
Readers of the oral history memoir should bear in mind that it is a transcript of the spoken word, and that the interviewer, narrator and editor sought to preserve the informal, conversational style that is inherent in such historical sources. Sangamon State University is not responsible for the factual accuracy of the memoir, nor for views expressed therein; these are for the reader to judge. 
The manuscript may be read, quoted and cited freely. It may not be reproduced in whole or in part by any means, electronic or mechanical, without permission in writing from the Oral History Office, Sangamon State University, Springfield, Illinois, 62708. 
Table of Contents 
Musical Education • • 1 
Mechelen, Belgium Carillon School • • 1 
World War II's Effect on European Carillons • • 2 
Working as an Organist. . 3 
Carillon Playing Techniques • • 5 
Composing . • 7 
Springfield's Carillon's Beginnings • . 8 
Casting Bells • 9 
Springfield Carillon Festival • .11 
Places Where Mr. Keldermans Has Performed • .13 
Carillon in Mafra, Portugal • .14 
Carillon Maintenance. .15 
Thomas Rees • .17 
Compositions. .19 
Springfield College in Illinois--Music Department . .20 

Raymond Keldermans, Springfield, Illinois 
John Buccari, Interviewer. 
Q: Mr. Keldermans, perhaps we can begin this interview by having you state--in your hometown, Mechelen, Belgium, you grew up as a small boy. Was your father in the city carilloneur or was he one of the city carilloneurs? 
A: No, my father was not a musician. I am the only musician in the family. 
Q: You received your training, not as a carilloneur, let's say, but as a young boy in this same city, Mechelen? 
A: Yes, in grade and in high school, I sang in a cathedral boys' choir as a soprano, and I started to love the polyphony. And one day they had an organ inauguration. A new organ was put into the cathedral and we had to sing for it, and at that time Flor Peeters, who was then a young man of about 21 or 23 years old, played the organ. Also, a French organist was invited, and that kind of set me on the road to start learning to play the organ. 
Q: Now, your education, was it at all hampered by your father with none of your family being musicians? 
A: No, not at all. 
Q: They were happy. 
A: They were happy. Oh, yes. No, there was no problem, and since the Lemmens Institute was right in the city of Mechelen, there was no problem. 
Q: Now, your education as a carilloneur, you attended the Mechelen Carillon School? 
A: Yes, that came later. 
Q: Now, this is, as you say came later, [but] you had been trained as an organist? 
A: First, yes. First, I got a master's degree in organ and composition from the Lemmens Institute, which is mainly based on church music and virtuosity on the organ. That's put together. And then I went to Berlin to study composition, choir, and orchestra conducting at the Bwagstaughfer School for Music in Berlin, and followed also, of course, in folk music in Leipzig and later on in Graz, in Austria for several weeks. And then back in Belgium, I was a private student for composition by Paul Gilsoy, at that time a very well-known composer and educator in Brussels. And only after that I started to play the carillon. 
Q: In playing the carillon, the city of Mechelen is quite famous for the number of carillons. Approximately how many are there or how many were there at the time you were there? 
A: At the time I was there, there was only one carillon in Mechelen. Right now there are three, actually four. There's a small, private carillon on a flat wagon on a truck that is used, let's say, for religious processions or parades and so on. 
Q: Is it consisting of 23 bells or how many? 
A: More, 35 bells with the keyboard and everything. It's playable. It's a good instrument. But the old, historical carillon is in the cathedral tower of Citronbottes. Then after the Second World War, a small carillon was hung in the tower of the city museum, which is right next to the carillon school, and can be used by the students of the carillon school for practice purposes, and evening and summer concerts are played there. And then, about seven or eight years ago, Onze Lieve Vrouw Kerk, which is what they named the church, who used to have a carillon before Napoleon's time--the carillon there was stolen, I mean, confiscated by Napoleon. They got a new carillon now, too. But you probably are thinking of a city like Amsterdam where there are now nine carillons. And Valenciennes, north of France, at one time in late sixteen hundred or early seventeen hundred had eleven carillons. 
Q: First of all, how big is this city of Mechelen? 
A: The city of Mechelen has 64,000. It's not a very large city in American standards. 
Q: I would like to ask now, what was your approximate age when you went to the Mechelen Carillon School? 
A: It actually happened in two phases. I was seventeen when I started out the first time, but then I went there for about two years and not very regularly because I was still a student at Lemmens Institute and had a lot of other things to do. Then I went to Germany and interrupted my studies completely, and it was only after the Second World War was over that I really started to become serious, and from then on took regular lessons and graduated. 
Q: The Second World War, it did much damage to the carillons in Belgium and northern France? In the lowlands? 
A: Oh, yes. In the lowlands, yes. An example would be Dunkirk in France where the carillon was destroyed in 1400 and again in the First World War and again in the Second World War. It's now rebuilt and it's one of the nicest carillons in France. In fact, I played two concerts there last year, a very beautiful carillon. The church is still in pretty bad shape, but the city is rebuilt. Dunkirk was almost completely destroyed by the invasion. The English had to evacuate Dunkirk and the Germans were, of course, for about a week they constantly bombarded the city. 
Q: Well, that brings to mind another question. When the invading armies, regardless of what city or what nationality it might be the French in Napoleon's time used the cast bells to make cannons, and I'm sure it was happening in the Second World War--but when they did not take the bells, just bombed the city, how much damage would this cause a carillon, not only to the structure, but would there be many cracks in the bells? 
A: Well, this all depends, of course, on how close the bombardment was. Now, Rotterdam in Holland is a typical example. The old tower--I'm thinking of the name--anyway, the tower of the main church at the historical carillon of Hemony in the late sixteen hundreds is there, and by the bombardment of Rotterdam for the fourth day of the war, the tower was destroyed and the bells were buried under the rubble. Then later on when they started to dig out, many of the bells were intact because a cast bell is really strong. And I know another example of this in Arnheim, Holland. The tower there was destroyed and several of the large bells came tumbling down 150 feet or something like that, and they were damaged but not really cracked. I know one of the bell founders in Holland, who had the job of casting a new carillon. They were going to use the metal of the old bells to do that. They used an electric hammer pounding on one bell for more than four days before they got the first crack in it. 
And, of course, to melt the bell down, they have to crack the bell in 
small pieces, otherwise the bell is too large to be thrown in an oven to melt. It took four days for a certain bell before they got a crack in that. It is some of the smaller bells--it is not so much the damage of 
the bombardments that caused the biggest havoc. It is taking out the bells and then shipping them to Germany to be recast or melted. Already Napoleon started this, we said that before. And luckily this was, about five thousand bells were found close to Hamburg by the Canadian Army and 
they were all given back to the different places where they were taken 
from. 
Q: You mentioned prior to the interview the name of the Canadian officer. 
A: 
Yes, Purcival Price. He studied in Mechelen between the two wars as a young man. Then he became a carilloneur of the Peace Tower in Ottawa 

A: 
My first employment was here in Springfield, [Illinois]. I was employed as an organist in Mechelen first, then later on I became the director of a music conservatory in Hasselt, Belgium. 


in Canada. After that he went to Ann Arbor, Michigan, carilloneur there for oh, probably thirty years or so. two years ago, retired.  and he He just resigned  was  university  
Q:  Where  was  your first employment  as  a  carilloneur?  

Q: Well then, not moving rapidly up to your first employment as a carilloneur, but staying as the director of music at Hasselt, is that it? 
A: Hasselt, Belgium, yes. And occasionally I would have a chance to play a carillon concert here or there, but there were so many carilloneurs in Belgium that it was very hard at that time. The same with organists, there were too many organists. You could wait for years for a decent position. But just before the Second World War, Jef Denyn, at that time director of the Carillon School, asked me if I would consider going to Bolivia, to La Paz as a carilloneur, after finishing my studies at the Carillon School and I agreed at that time. But then, as is common in South America, some kind of a revolution broke out in La Paz, and the tower that was to be financed by a group of people, bankers and so on, was never realized because of this revolution. 
And right after the Second World War, Stef Nees--meanwhile Jef Denyn had died--and Stef Nees became his successor. And Stef Nees had been my first organ teacher and teacher for harmony and later my carillon teacher. I got a letter from Wellington, New Zealand, the capital. There's a war memorial carillon there from the First World War. Before the First World War, a lady from New Zealand came to Mechelen--she was a pianist--came to Mechelen to study and from there she got her degree from the Carillon School and went back. And she died during the Second World War. So right after the Second World War, they wrote to Mechelen for a carilloneur to come to New Zealand. And again, Stef Nees asked if I would take that job, and I was glad to do it, because after the war things were pretty bad in Belgium. Our family was growing and the employment was not too good and so on, so I accepted this. But it took about six months before an answer came from New Zealand and they decided then to send a GI from over there to study in Belgium. So when he came to Belgium to study at the Carillon School on a tutorial basis, I helped him with harmony because he was behind in his theory. So I had to teach the man who took my job. (laughter) Not actually, but this was ••• so I never got to New Zealand. Then, the way I came to America was actually through Flor Peeters, my former organ teacher who was on a concert tour to America here. He asked me to take his position in the cathedral, to fill in for him while he was gone. 
Q: Now what cathedral was this? 
A: Cathedral Seims, the Troumbouttes Cathedral where the carillon is located too, in Mechelen. 
Q: In Mechelen, yes. 
A: 
And after he came back from America, I told him that this deal with New Zealand fell through, and he said, "Well, if I was you, I would apply for a position in America as an organist. That would be just as well." 

A: 
St. Mary's Church. And I would probably have stayed there, if it hadn't been that the neighborhood changed, and by this token, the church lost its parishioners. They moved to suburbs. Finally the church was not able to pay a decent salary. Then I got a call from the pastor here at Blessed Sacrament Church, Monseigneur Swartz. I don't know where he got hold of my name but he offered the job here. And I came to Springfield with my wife to look things over and talk with the pastor. I liked the church and this would be a choir master organist. And in the afternoon we had to come back for a second interview. In the afternoon, we were driving on South Grand and my wife had bought a newspaper to look for apartments or for houses, and suddenly she found an article in there that a tower would be built in Washington Park and later a carillon would be installed. So when I heard that, my first reaction was, '~ell, this will probably be one of those electronic carillons again. I don't even want to bother with it, it's not worth it." But then in the afternoon, I saw the pastor of Blessed Sacrament again and I told him about that and he said that they have been talking so much about the carillon for years and if it ever is going to come through; but this is a fact and [he said,] "If you want to have more information, one of our board members of the church is also a board member of the Park Board. I'll talk to him about this." And this is the first contact I got with the Park Board, through the church, and this is the way they later contacted me and asked some advising in building this until I became carilloneur. But, of course, I had a very hard job the first six months because I hadn't played for, not on a regular basis, for about fifteen years. 


And I took his advice, organist first of all. Toledo, Ohio.  and he helped me I was an organist for  and  so  I se got ven  to America or eight ye as ars  an in  
Q:  Which church?  

Q: And too, I might ask, the carillon that you might have been playing on fifteen years before coming to Springfield was how many octaves? 
A: Well, this was in Detroit. If I recall exactly, I'm not sure, probably four octaves. Of course, they are all different. But that was not really the point. It is the technique of playing that waters down if you don't play at all for such a period. It takes a while to build this up again. 
Q: I can say it's definitely not like riding a bicycle. 
A: No, no. (laughter) No, it's not. 
Q: So when you did receive the position here in Springfield, how were the first six months spent? 
A: Well, actually, adjusting again. I had to play every Saturday and Sunday, which has been going on now for thirteen years. But there are two ways that you have to adjust. First of all, the technique, the musical aspect. I didn't forget anything, but the ability, the agility is not there any more. You have to build this up slowly. And then the second part is the physical part. I distinctly remember that the first three or four months, each time after I played, I had a sore muscle in my left leg because this is the leg that is actually activating the larger bells, and our base bell is a bell of seven and a half tons. So that's quite a weight of a clapper that you move there. I didn't think anything of it. I knew this was just a matter of getting adjusted again. After a 
6
certain time, you suddenly feel that this pain isn't there any more after you have played, and this is the same with the arms and muscles in the back and so on, see. 
Q: I notice you have calluses on your hands. You don't wear gloves, do you? 
A: No, I don't wear gloves. Some carilloneurs wear gloves, I only use a Band-Aid. It's an expensive deal. You have to buy Band-Aids all the time. I've spent a fortune on Band-Aids in my career. But I feel that gloves don't give me the contact, the feeling of the contact between the peg, the key and your hands. They are too thick, but a Band-Aid is just enough to protect your hands, especially in the summer when you start to sweat. That's the dangerous part. In winter, I don't need it so much. 
Q: I earlier stated that you had played for a short period, then for fifteen years there had been a time when you only very seldom were playing the carillon. 
A: Yes, maybe once every four or five months. 
Q: So, you were playing on a carillon with four octaves, generally speaking. Now, in Springfield the number of octaves is seven, I believe. 
A: Seven and a half. 
Q: So, you might, for the benefit of the people who will listen to this interview, describe the physical dexterity one must have in playing a keyboard of seven octaves. Now, just the keyboard of the piano has how many octaves? 
A: As a musician I should know. (chuckles) 
Q: As a piano instructor, what was it, three? 
A: No, it's also seven and a half or eight, yes. I'm ashamed to say I don't know. I never thought of it. 
Q: Well, the general width of a piano would be about, let's say four feet? 
A: Normally it's made so that you can reach it by stretching both arms. That's about the size. 
Q: Now the carillon? 
A: Well, in this case our keyboard or clavier, our keyboard is so large that you have to bend over to the extreme right if you want to play the higher bells. And this is the reason why you could build larger carillons but it becomes impractical because it would not be playable in the sense that you would have to move from one side to the other. 
Q: Yes, it would be as big as a room, a small cubicle, a studying cubicle. 
A: Yes. Then you would have a movable bench to reach. No, it's not practical. 
Q: And as you stated, your left foot is required to depress the pedal for the clapper of the heavy bells, the base bells with its seven and a half tons they are weighing, so you're sitting on a bench? 
A: Yes, you are sitting on a bench approximately in the middle of the keyboard. Here in Springfield, it's not actually in the middle you sit. You sit a little bit more to the left. 
Q: Which would be toward the bass? 
A: The bass and the medium bells are there, then the very high, the two last octaves are on your right hand and they are not so much used so that they sit a little bit more out of reach, I would say. And if you use them, you seldom use them together with the very heavy bass bells. Otherwise you would be in a completely slanted position, see, since you have to lean over. And also the sound of the heaviest bell, we call it the bourdon, and the very top bells do not always harmonize like it should so when we use the top bells, usually the pedal is left out. 
Q: Now, in depressing a pedal or the key or the peg in the clavier of the keyboard for a seven and a half ton bell, requires not much strength you might say, but a great amount of pressure. Now, in playing pianissimo in a heavy bell and then playing a pianissimo in one of the lightest and the highest notes of bells, is completely different. 
A: Completely different, the pressure of it. The reason for that is that the bell, of course, is stationary. The bell does not move, it's not a swinging bell in a carillon. It's only the clapper that moves, and the clapper is to be considered around a twentieth of the weight of the bell. So now, our clapper of our bass bell is about 285 pounds. Then this is leveled out by a counter-weight. But it's still a pressure of, I'm not sure, but at least forty or fifty pounds if you press down. It's easy to press down to lift up, of course. The clapper falls back in its position after being played. But you cannot--to show you how heavy it is--you cannot repeat a note on the heaviest bells very fast. You must give the clapper time to come back in its position and then strike back. When the bell gets smaller, the clapper gets lighter, then you can repeat as fast as on the piano. Like a tremolo can be done real easily. 
Q: And then, this would have to be taken into consideration in composing. 
A: Oh, yes. It's a definite technique. And as a carilloneur, you always feel [a difference in] compositions written by a carilloneur or written by another musician who is not a carilloneur. And there's a lot of trouble adjusting to the instrument. It is about the same as when you're a pianist and you write for violin, for a string instrument, it takes quite a bit of study and adaptation to write. In fact the best compositions for violin are written by people who play the violin, too. It's the same with the piano. 
Q: The idea of using seven octaves in the Springfield carillon, what determined this? Why wasn't it the average number, say 48 bells, which would be about four octaves? 
A: Well, the Park Board here had in mind to get the largest carillon in the world at that time. 
Q: Which would number how many bells? 
A: Well, they would have to go up to New York, which is the largest. It has 76 bells. The first plans were for 88 bells. Then when they started to ask advice, and the first time I had a meeting with these gentlemen, they proposed this plan, they asked me to work out the specifications, but they had mentioned 88 bells. And of course, I made a fast calculation in my mind and I knew that this wasn't possible, which I told them. 
Q: Well, what was the reason? Again, the impossibility of having 88 bells would be the clavier? 
A: Yes. Well, this is what they asked me. They asked me right away and I told them that this would mean a keyboard so large that you would, as I said before, need a bicycle to go from one place to the other. (chuckles) No, that would be impossible to play. This is my only reaction or my only reason for that. Then they asked me to come back two weeks later and get specific specifications made up, which I did. I also mailed an air mail letter in a hurry to my former teacher, Staf Nees in Mechelen, because I didn't trust my own judgment completely. This is something you 
must understand. When you are responsible for the building of a carillon, 
this carillon is going to be here if nothing out of the extraordinary 
happens, then this carillon might be here for two or three hundred years, 
and if something goes wrong, the finger is going to be pointed to you if 
you make a mistake. So I made the specifications for 66 bells, no, 62, 
I'm sorry, 62 bells. I thought this was mighty large enough. And my 
idea was, "Let's get the best carillon in the world. We don't need the 
largest carillon, but the best." So I wrote to Staf Nees and he agreed 
with my plan, made some very interesting remarks, practical remarks, because he had more experience and had been called to advise in so many 
other carillons. And then I Board and they accepted it. at that time • • •  took my But then recommendations back to , Mr. Stewart, the Park  the Park Board Director  
Q:  That's Robert Stewart?  

A: Robert Stewart--still Park Board Director now, Park Board President, I'm sorry--interrupted me and asked if I had anything against 66 bells. Of course, four more small bells didn't make any difference in the plan I had and I accepted this. So from then on the bids were released to different companies and the lowest bidder had the job. But to come back to the 88 and 66 bells, a couple of years later during one of our festivals here, I was walking with Robert Stewart in the park. We had become better acquainted then and actually, we became good friends. I had the nerve that time to ask him, it was still in the back of my mind why 66 bells and not 62 and so I asked him. He said, "Well, you know we had had in the paper already mentioned that we would get 88 bells and if we now came up with 62, some people might question this and it would take a lot of explaining why. But if we make it 66, we could always say this was a mistake, a printing mistake." (chuckles) So this is the way it worked. But then when the bells came about six months later, and all that time back in my mind, I was very ••• how should I say, not unhappy but a little bit of an uneasy feeling about the fact that these very small bells, that they wouldn't sound right. Because see, the harmonists in seventeen hundred cast beautiful carillons, but they never dared to cast real small bells. That's why most carillons have 35 bells. The harmonists never cast much more than 35 to 38 bells, later on 48, at the most 50 bells. The reason for that was that the casters could not cast small bells that were sonorous, that could stand up next to the heavier bells. And the last fifteen years, they have found the process of correcting this, and I never had the chance to hear these small bells. So I was kind of crossing my fingers that they would be nice, and when they came here, I really was amazed at the beauty and the purity of these bells. 
Q: Now, as being one who has absolutely no idea about this, when the clapper on the large bell strikes the seven and a half ton bell, the vibration from this, does it affect the smallest of the bells? 
A: No, not at all. The vibration of the different bells does not affect the other bells. 
Q: I thought perhaps the biggest might affect the smallest which had not been perfected until fifteen years ago. 
A: No, there is another reason for that. The profile of a bell, that is the shape of a bell in general, the profile determines the quality of the bell. To give you a good example, now you take a Swiss cow bell. The Swiss cow bell does not sound good because the profile of the bell is not good. It is not meant to be a musical bell. It's just a nice clang, a sound. And only around 1300 or 1400 did they find a design for the profile of the bell that would make the bell sound. From then on the bells sound much better. 
Q: They have a clarity to it that would be distinctive in design. 
A: Yes. Then later on--this was, of course, a matter of centuries and perfection of the bell--the hemonists came up with a scientific design that really gave the best bell sound and that we are still forming now, up to I would say 99 per cent still. But the hemonists, it was not a mistake, they never found this out. What happens is you take the size and profile of a heavy bell, and then you diminish this, but the same profile, the same thickness was kept all over for all the bells, only less metal was used. By this token, it was a straight line that ran through the forming of the bell, just the bell became smaller each time. 
Q: Then becomes thinner. 
A: Yes. The walls would become thinner as the bell became smaller. Now, the last couple of years, the last twenty years, they have been studying this and they have found that at a certain point they make the wall of the bell heavier again, and that suddenly improved the sound. And this was a theory that hemonists had never considered at that time, and it only came slowly within the last twenty-five, thirty years. And so Springfield is one of the first where they applied this principle, so our bells are cast on a certain curve, I would say, the old idea of getting smaller and the walls thinner up to a certain point, this is correct. But from then on, the last two octaves, they become much heavier again, thicker walls, and suddenly you have a sound that--our smaller bells here will sound just as clearly and distinctly. You can pick it up in the park just as clearly as any of the larger bells ringing together. This was just not true before, the smaller bells would lose out against the heavier bells. 
Q: Now, a question to ask you. When you did come to Blessed Sacrament Church as the choir master organist, how long did you have to wait before you found out about the carillon or did Mr. Stewart--! take it that Mr. Stewart was the man who was also at the church? 
A: No, this was Mr. Gietl. Gietl was the vice president of the Park Board. 
Q: Now, did he contact you by letter or what? 
A: No, Monseigneur Swartz must have told Gietl and he did not pursue this, he kind of did not think of it for a while. I found out later, Mr. Stewart told me that about six weeks after I came here, they had to go to Chicago to meet a carilloneur from Princeton, Bigelow. And they asked advice of Bigelow for this instrument here, and they also had asked advice of Wendell Westcott in Lansing, two American carilloneurs. And one day, I think it was late May or early June, Stewart and Gietl went by car to Chicago to meet Bigelow. Bigelow had some business in Chicago and they would meet him there, and then talk specifications over for a carillon. And on the way, Gietl must have suddenly thought of the fact that the pastor of Blessed Sacrament told him that there was a carilloneur in Springfield, and according to the story--! wasn't there--Stewart pulled the car to the side and stopped and said, "But what are we going to do in Chicago, if we have a carilloneur in our backyard? Let's go back to Springfield." And then they decided, "Well, of course, we have an appointment with Bigelow. Let's go to Chicago and meet Bigelow and see what he has to say," which they did. And in this conversation, they mentioned my name to Bigelow, and Bigelow said, "Well sure, I know Keldermans. We stayed together in Mechelen." Bigelow had been there while I was there, too, and became, for a short time, carilloneur for the University of Louvain, where he also studied. Bigelow was also an engineer and taught some subject through it, which he learned in Princeton University, where he also became later on a teacher in that field, plus carilloneur. 
Q: That's quite a combination. 
A: Oh, yes. And he cast bells himself, Of course, this was a hobby because casting bells on a commercial basis is a different story, but he has cast a couple of very beautiful bells. And so he kindly recommended me to the Park Board, and then they also wrote to Staf Nees in Belgium and he recommended me too. Then a couple of weeks later, they sent a Raymond Keldermans 
Springfield man here who was teaching for the public high school--and still is, he's going to retire this year--Father Bowen. They sent him over to my house and we talked and he invited me to come to the Park Board meeting. And this was the first meeting where they asked me if I would consider becoming carilloneur, first of all, and then secondly, if I could help out with the specifications. And then for the specifications in the official book of the specifications, there are the three advisors: this Bigelow of Princeton, and Wendell Westcott of Lansing, and myself. 
End of Side One, Tape One 
Q: The Springfield Carillon Festival has been an annual affair for some twelve or thirteen years I believe, hasn't it? 
A: Yes. It started this way. The first playing took place after the bells were installed, the first Sunday of December in 1961. But the official inauguration took place the last week in June, 1962. And for that inauguration, four carilloneurs were invited: two Americans, this Frederic Marriott, the former carilloneur of Chicago, now carilloneur of Kirk in the Hills north of Detroit, Michigan, Wendell Westcott of Lansing, Leen't Hart from Holland, and Staf Nees from Belgium, and then I played, too. And this first inauguration was a great success because the program stated three days of carillon concerts. And by the end of the third day people kept coming, so the Park Board decided and asked some people like Leen't Hart and Staf Nees to play a couple more concerts and two days were added to it. Almost a week of festivities. And then by the end of that week, I suggested to Mr. Stewart that we should renew this every year and have a carillon festival, and he kind of liked the idea. And the first festival in 1963 was kind of a small festival, we only had American carilloneurs here. We could not afford carilloneurs from overseas. But in 1964, for the first time, we got Leen't Hart. And from then on, we have, every year, at least two and sometimes three people from Europe and three or four American carilloneurs playing. 
Q: And they are excellent festivals as far as the music and production of the festival, with the very nice surroundings of the carillon. 
A: Oh, yes. This is also the time of the year that the roses are in bloom. And the last week in June somehow seems to be quite a week as far as nature is concerned. In early June we have a lot of rainstorms and thunderstorms, and for thirteen years I've been watching this, but the last week of June, there seems to be some quiet in nature. Then in July it gets too hot. So it's really a nice time. According to the Park Board police sometimes we had 30,000 people in the park in the one week, not daily, and an overflow of cars that have to park on the grass and the lawn instead of the parking lots. 
Q: That's very good attendance for something which is relatively new to this area. 
A: Yes. For this year's [1975] festival, we have four carilloneurs from Europe coming, Leen't Hart from Holland, Piet Van Den Broek, the present carilloneur of Mechelen and also the director of the Carillon School. 
Raymond Keldermans 
Q: This is Leen't Hart you say his name is? 
A: Leen't Hart is from Holland, the director of the school in Holland. And Piet Van Den Broek is the director of the school in Mechelen now and then Jacques Lannoy from Douai, the most outstanding French carilloneur, is coming, too. And then another Belgian carilloneur, Wapemans from Tienen, the city of Tienen in Belgium, a very fine carilloneur. Then American carilloneurs Wendell Westcott from Lansing and [Frederic] Marriott from Detroit. 
Q: And is Mr. Staf Nees still coming? 
A: No, Staf Nees died in early 1965. He was supposed to be playing that 
year here in 1965. He was invited for the festival and he never made it. 
Last summer, Staf Nees's wife was going to come to America and she would 
come to the festival and so all the carilloneurs decided to make this a 
Staf Nees Festival. Each played at least two or three compositions of 
Staf Nees' in this festival, but she didn't make it. I got a letter from 
her in March that she had been sick and that the doctor would not give 
her permission to come. She died last September while I was in Belgium, 
but I didn't get to see her. She was in a real bad condition. 

Q: Now, you have been performing as a carilloneur around the world. 
What was your very objective, and then personal, opinion of the Springfield 
carillon? 

A: Well, my personal opinion--and I consider the opinion of the visiting 
carilloneurs even of more importance--is that this is one of the best 
carillons in the world tonewise for quality of the tone. This was Staf 
Nees 1 opinion and Leen't Hart and most of the people that played here. 
This might be interesting to show my point. When a carillon is cast, it 
is customary in the bell foundries that they hang the carillon up in a 
frame and attach a keyboard to it and let it be judged by the carilloneur 
who will play this instrument, or by some expert who has been commissioned 
by the city or the church to go and judge this. But in the case of 
Springfield it was a little harder. The Park Board did not think it wise 
to send me over because of the cost, so they asked Staf Nees as director 
of the school in Belgium and Leen't Hart as director of the school in 
Holland, to go to Aarle-Rixtle where the carillon was cast to judge the 
instrument I would play. They started at nine o'clock in the morning--I 
got this from the bell caster himself, the director of the company--they 
started to play about nine o'clock and each played for about forty-five 
minutes and the other took over, and they didn't stop before five o'clock 
in the afternoon. Then everybody was embarrassed because they kept 
playing and playing, and they wanted to get lunch and they wanted to go 
for dinner and so on and so on. And each time Staf Nees stopped, then 
Leen't Hart would jump on the instrument. (chuckles) So they were 
really both taken in by the quality of the instrument. And I got a 
letter from Staf Nees later on in which he wrote--he used a typical 
Flemish expression, which I cannot translate in English--that I was lucky 
to get a carillon of such quality. And then all of our visiting carilloneurs 
have been of the same opinion. 

Q: What makes it of such fine quality? 
A: Well, the Fritsen's who cast this carillon, of course, they have an old tradition of bell casting and they took special care because this was one of the largest, probably the largest instrument they ever cast. And they wanted to make it a show piece. You can see why, when a company gets a contract for a carillon of 66 bells, where the normal size or the largest probably was 50 bells or something like that, they took special care to do a good job. Also it was one of the first large carillons they cast for America and this, for their company, was good advertisement and they made it as good as possible. 
Q: What are some of the cities and carillons you have played in the past fifteen years in the United States and other parts of the world? Just a brief list. 
A: (chuckles) It's a long list. Well, in the states, I would say the best situation after Springfield, I would say Lake Quails, the Bach Tower in Florida, is one of the most interesting. Then I played in New York. I also played there in the World's Fair in 1956 on a small Belgium carillon. Chicago, Ames, Ann Arbor, Cincinnati, and St. Louis. I inaugurated the carillon in St. Louis at Concordia Seminary, and I played the first concert there. Ottawa, Toronto, Quebec, no not Quebec, Montreal. And this year I will play in Spokane and in Victoria, British Columbia. 
Q: Is the carillon in Spokane the new one? 
A: Fairly new. Four or five years ago it was cast by an English company. I haven't played there yet. I don't know, I think it's a good carillon, something like 50 bells. 
Q: Is the acceptance of the carillon comparable to that here in Springfield or is it greater in some other sections of the country? 
A: No. I think, without bragging, that there is no place in the world where there is a festival like we have here. Now, to make this more acceptable, places like Mechelen have a concert every Monday night in summer. There are quite a bit of people that attend those concerts, a large crowd of, I would say four or five hundred people for one concert, which is not bad for a carillon. But a festival as such is not done hardly anyplace. I know in England they have a festival in Lockvorrow. I played there two times for a festival. I played there actually three times. That festival lasts a weekend, that is Saturday and Sunday and there are, at the most, three or four people invited. It's small compared to what we have here. It's just, I don't know, by certain luck and so on that it really grew. I think that the reason it developed to such an extent is that we got right from the beginning the support of the Park Board and could do this, otherwise it would have been impossible. But we had all the right people, the right place to do it. First of all, a Park Board who understood the value of this for the Springfield area. Secondly, I dare say that I was not thinking of myself alone. I could have done this like it is done so many places. I could have played the carillon alone and invite nobody. Because then they would not have seen my shortcomings so much, certainly in the beginning after I hadn't played for fifteen years. 
And this is like I said in the beginning of this interview--what made it hard on me, that I hadn't played. Yet I knew I was going to invite Staf Nees, the top player in the world, and Leen't Hart, who ranks maybe just a grade below Staf Nees, and two great American carilloneurs. I could have been selfish and said, "No, I'm not going to do that, because I'm going to be the poor showing there," and actually this was true. But I worked hard for six months to be able to, at least--and I think that this was one reason that we, from the first moment, had terrific players--that 
this built that festival up to where we got it now. And it helped me personally too, because I worked hard for a couple of years. 
Q: Well, I believe that people can understand your fine quality as a carilloneur. But also the people of Springfield received their first impression from, not only you as one of the best carilloneurs, but from who you considered to be very fine carilloneurs, and as I say, this first reception was an excellent showing for the carillon. 
A: Yes, and of course I try every year to change our carilloneurs around and get new players and that keeps the interest going. But I am very pleased with this. The first year or two people would come, they probably loved the sound of the bells. But I knew when I talked to the people in the park that they did not understand nor could they follow exactly what was going on. Now five, six, ten years later, you better be careful what you do, because there are so many people who come to the park and start to recognize different styles of playing. Because there is a Flemish style, and there is a Dutch style, and there is an English and a French style, like with every art form. And every nation builds a school and there is tradition there, and they start to recognize this. And also, what's amazing is that the same number, the same composition played by two different carilloneurs--I have people coming up to me who say, "So and so plays this differently." And so this proves that there is an educational process that has been going on. And of course, by playing Saturday and Sunday, in summer also Wednesday, some people really have got an education in listening to bells and start to understand it. 
Q: 
Now, the acceptance in the southern parts of Europe, is it comparable to what we might find here in the United States? I'm sure the largest following of carillons would be in the lowlands of northern Europe. But now you've been to Portugal and have played there. 

Q: 
Yes. The carillon art made some inroads in Spain in the 1700s, but probably, we don't know the reason why it died out, but I think it's more a matter of economical reasons, that there was no money to pay a player in Spain. And this is also [true] for the two carillons that exist in Portugal. It must have been the same reason. They were built in a time, the 1700s, when Portugal was still pretty strong and pretty wealthy. And then of course, when Brazil as a colony was lost and so on, then they didn't have any means any more. For a period of 150 years, both carillons were not played in Mafra, Portugal, which is about twenty miles north of Lisbon. The story of these two carillons is very interesting, if you have the time to go into that. It's a certain king, John the Second, who traveled to Flanders, to Antwerp, and probably by boat. And this is something that happened to Thomas Rees, too, I'll bring this up later. 


But King John II came to Antwerp and heard the carillon in the Notre Dame Cathedral there. 
Q: Well now, wasn't Spain in control of the lowlands at this time? A bit before I believe. 
A: No, it was before, in the 1600s, yes. We were then under the Habsburgs, Austria. Well, when he heard these bells in Antwerp, he ordered a carillon for one of his towers in the Mafra Palace by De Haze, the bell foundry in Antwerp. When the instrument was delivered some months later, and he paid the price for it and he found out what the cost was, he said, "Well, this is fairly inexpensive. Let's get another one for the other tower." And he traveled to Leische in the French part of Belgium and got the carillon cast by La Vache, a French7Belgium bell caster. Now both carillons are in these two towers of the Mafra Palace plus another twenty bells just hanging there. After the Second World War, Jef Denyn must have found out. Jef Denyn looked all over Europe for carillons because he is a great man on the renovation of the carillon and the art was dying. 
Q: His name was what again? 
A: Jef Denyn, the founder of the Carillon School in Mechelen. He also rebuilt and renewed the mechanism of the carillons, which had--after Napoleon's time there was a terrific decline. We can go into that later. Let's go back to Portugal first. Jef Denyn found out that there was such a thing in Portugal and he traveled to Mafra and got the officials there to do something about it. A new keyboard was installed and hooked up to one of the carillons. And it's that carillon that is still in use now. The other carillon that sits in the other tower, the one by La Vache, the keyboard is gone and some clappers are missing, but all the bells are there and could be used. Now, the French carilloneur, Jacques Lannoy, has been playing there in the summer for a month in August, and has been trying to get the government of Portugal to do something about that second carillon, and also restore the one that is in use now, a better keyboard. After fifty years, this keyboard is in bad shape and the instrument is very heavy to play. Also, some of the bells are out of tune now. If Portugal had the money to--because Mafra is a tourist center. There's a lot of tourism there and they really could build this up, but they are so slow in doing it and probably no money. It was very, very interesting to play there. 
Q: Have you ever had any accidents while on tour or here in Springfield, like the cords breaking when you push down on the keys? 
A: Oh, yes. We don't call this an accident. This is something normal. You see, the wires that connect the key or the peg to the clapper are kept as light as possible because of the weight. Also, if the bells are too far from the keyboard, it makes the playing very hard. It's an amount of several pounds that's added to it by just an extension of a wire that's too long. Now here, we have no problem because the bells are pretty close to the keyboard. But they are steel wires, and they are kept as light as possible because it helps the playing. Occasionally, a wire will break, there is no way out. It's like a string on a violin will break. And the string does not always ask if a concert is going on or not. (chuckles) We had a case here with this same French carilloneur, Jacques Lannoy, who broke three wires in the first number that he played. The tension on the wire gets to a certain point where it breaks no matter what. I have an average of about five or six wires I break over a whole year. And of course, our maintenance man tries to prevent it. If a wire shows wear, then it is replaced once or twice a year, and he keeps track of it and so on. But you still cannot prevent it, so this is possible. But I never had other accidents. Occasionally, I know in Mechelen once, a clapper fell out of a bell, but there's usually nobody under a bell when you play it. Here we never had any problems so far. It is a matter of maintenance, if your maintenance man keeps an eye open and tightens screws and all this, once or twice a year. 
Q: He was sent to school for this maintenance? 
A: No. The maintenance man we have here was one of the people who worked with the two men that were sent over from Holland, with plans, specifications, and they actually put it together. And four or five of our people of the company who built the tower were here, too, for the heavier jobs. This one man very much took an interest in it and was mechanically inclined and kind of studied the plans while they were building. And when the building was finished and the instrument was erected, he had a fairly good idea of what had to be done, and has been giving good service all of these years. And he is now training his son to do it, because his health is not too good. And his son is now helping, so that is fine. Because it's a problem. There is a tower in Richmond, Virginia and they have only one or two concerts a year where they invite somebody. I played there twice, and when you get there this instrument is in such poor shape. It has to be oiled and greased and it's not done there. 
Q: They have no carilloneur there? 
A: No, no. They just invite somebody. Here is a sad case of a carillon erected after the First World War, around sixty bells, a large instrument too. And the people of that time who had donated the money were very interested but somehow, never thought that a carillon cannot live without a player. So they invited, occasionally, a carilloneur. Then when these people slowly moved out or died over a period of forty or fifty years, nobody was interested in it anymore, because an instrument that's played once or twice a year, nobody pays any attention to. But it's in a nice city park. It's a beautiful tower and it's a nice instrument, but the playing is very poor because you don't have the time to go over everything. You can adjust a little bit, but you cannot really play maintenance man when you get there before a concert. This cannot be done. And so this could be the case, like in Springfield, too, you know. If there would be no carilloneur here, what good would the instrument do? And yet this is something that should be considered. In so many places people give money for a carillon, but once the instrument is there, they never think of the fact that it should be played. If it's not played, it's a bad thing, and then there is an instrument and no player. 
Q: It's a monument to the past. 
A: Yes. If they donate, like was done here, there should be a stipulation made in this will or in this contract that so much a year should be put aside to pay for a carilloneur. 
Q: That's so. Now, Thomas Rees you said was somewhat like King John II of Portugal. 
A: Yes. What happened is this. Thomas Rees was a senator here in Springfield, and he also became the owner of the State Journal or co-owner and became pretty wealthy. He traveled extensively and has written five or six books of his travel experiences. He landed in Antwerp, I think the year was 1922 or 1923. At that time there was still a Belgian-American line of boats, New York to Antwerp, which does not exist any more. He traveled by boat to Antwerp. And when the boat docks in Antwerp, you are almost right under this huge cathedral tower. And he heard bells, a carillon playing. Then he met Bach, the donor of the Bach Tower in Lake Quails, Florida, and knew a little bit of carillons. Yet then he got really interested in hearing this carillon in Antwerp, and he started to investigate several carillons in Belgium and in Holland, traveled all over. And I don't know, I never found out if he ever got in contact with the Carillon School in Mechelen, but I presume he must have, but there seems to be no record of it. And of course, Jef Denyn isn't there any more. But if I ever go back to Belgium, next year or so, I would like to look into that and see if there is any record of that. But anyway, when he came back to Springfield and made his will, some years later, he made his will up that his estate of $250,000 or so should be put in a trust fund and twenty years after his death, it should be used for a "cast bell carillon in some church or some tower, either already built or to be built here in Springfield." It did not specifically say who was to do it, but if, after this period, the money was not used for that, it should be used for something else. And nobody was interested in it except Stewart, who got the Park Board interested in it, and pretty close to the deadline he managed to get this thing off dead center and get the carillon built. In the contract of Thomas Rees, two words saved this carillon, that is "cast bronze bells." Because at a certain point when all this was going on and the public got interested in it and the daily paper and so on, some people came up with, "What? You are going to spend $300,000 for this instrument? If you build an electronic instrument, you can get this for $30,000." 
Q: Would you just go briefly into the difference between the electronic and the carillon of cast bells? 
A: Well, cast bells produce a tone in a natural way, just like any other instrument. But electronic bells, the tone is produced in an electronic way. It's not a real bell, it's a fake thing. So it's either a little tube and the vibration of that is magnified and then by loud speaker cast out, I would say, or it's just the imitation of a bell that is amplified. And so it's a kind of a dead thing. It's about the same idea as the difference between an electronic Hammond or Wurlitzer organ and the real pipe organ, the difference of the true tone with all its good and bad qualities. And it's amazing that the places where, to save money, they have built electronic carillons, there is hardly any interest for it by the population at all. 
Raymond Keldermans 
Q: It's just used to tell the time. 
A: Yes, or just play a little hymn before or after a service. Once you get used to the sound of the real bells, then it's sickening, the sound of the electronic bells. 
Q: Unfortunately my church has one of the electronic carillons. 
A: Downtown here? 
Q: No, it's out north. Now, what is the difference between some of the bells where the carillon is required to play it and when the programmed carillons play it? There's no human touch there, there's no emotion. 
A: Both. The same bells are used, but there is a double mechanism. First of all, you have your actual clavier or keyboard, which is connected by wires to the tumblers and to your clappers, so that when you strike the key, you can play with expression. You have dynamics. You can strike hard or very softly, medium, in between, you can build up a crescendo, contrast, in other words. Then we have an electric mechanism that's operated by a keyboard and you can play thirty-two bells from that keyboard, but there are no dynamics because you touch the key and by the electric motion, the clapper strikes always with the same intensity. It cannot be regulated. Electricity cannot control the bell like the human mind can, that's the difference in mechanical playing. And then the clock is also connected by this same system, so that you can set a certain amount of bells that can be activated by the clock so that when the time comes, there is this hour strike. 
Q: Now the Springfield carillon, I believe, has this for one particular use doesn't it, of the time element? 
A: Yes. 
Q: It has the chime. 
A: Yes. The chimes are what we call a Westminster chime because it's the melody that the Westminster Tower in London has. But you could play simple carillon pieces on this piano keyboard if you wanted to. It's there in case there is no carilloneur available, then a pianist or an organist could play this. The idea seems logical but it's not because it's a deft play. 
Q: What does the future hold for you as a carilloneur of Springfield? Are you going to be with the carillon hopefully for years in our future? 
A: Well, I would say at least a couple of years. I am almost sixty-three. I don't know how long I will be playing. 
Q: Do you have any choices for a protege to assume your position? 
A: Yes, my son Carl is now associate carilloneur. He has studied with me all these years, and he is going to Belgium this summer. 
Q: Will he be studying at Mechelen? 
A: Yes, he's going to be studying at Mechelen at the Carillon School. He also will then spend some time in Holland and in France with the foremost carilloneurs there, and visit bell foundries. And when he comes back, well, then it might be time for me to consider what I might do. But I still will be--playing or not playing--! still will be very much interested in composing for carillons and so on. I have this book by Andre Lair that I would like to translate, and I still hope to be active in the carillon life. 
Q: Now this book you hope to translate, this is on campanology? 
A: Campanology. But it's also the whole history of the bells from as far as you can go back to the time of the Chinese in the year 5,000 until now. 
Q: And you would be translating it into Flemish? 
A: From Flemish, Netherlandish, into English because several American carilloneurs have asked me if this could be done and if I could do it. So I wrote to Andre Lair, and I know him very well, and I got a very nice letter back. He was happy that I would do it. I presume it will take three or four years or maybe more to do it, because there are 700 pages in the book. It's a standard work. I don't think there is any book written yet in the history of bells that is so complete as this, by a man who really knows and has studied bells for years. 
Q: Now, [about] compositions, in a book on campanology. It is entitled Campanology by Mr. Leen't Hart, who is in Holland. He states that you were one of the United States' foremost composers for carillons. That is quite a compliment to you personally. I would also like to state that although the book states that generally, not only in Mr. Leen't Hart's book but also in the book on campanology by Wendell Westcoot--it talks about the Springfield carillon, [and what] is known about you as an internationally known player and as a composer. Can you tell us some of the material you have composed? 
A: Well, actually what I have composed for the carillon is small compared to the rest I have composed for orchestra and choir and so on. But for the carillon, I have one composition that won a prize in Mechelen for carillon compositions in 1964. It's called "Baroquesfest", in four parts. Then the alumni of the Carillon School in Mechelen have a society that publishes carillon music, and I have one composition published there, it's called "Toccata." And Leen't Hart, the school in Holland has published my "Pictures for the Carillon" which is a suite of five numbers and the first number is "Sunday Morning." It starts with the bells starting to ring and it goes into a joyful • • • and then the second number is "Lace Makers in Brugen, Belgium." Lace is made by women, it's handwork, and they throw these little ••• it's like a needle with thread on it from one side to the other and it gives a kind of musical idea, so I used the small bells for that. Then the next part is called the "Old Castle." Actually there are pictures of the old country that I had 1n my mind. And then there is "Quiet Waters" and the last part is "Feast Joyful." Then I have several others. I have a Flemish rhapsody based on Flemish folk songs, and what else • a nocturne for carillons. Oh, yes, "Four Old Flemish Dancers" and so on. 
Q: Do you have any underway at the moment? 
A: Yes, but there is a good reason why I cannot mention it now. Let's do it later. (chuckles) I'm actually composing all the time, but right now I've been writing several choral compositions. In fact, I mailed two to Belgium the other day. 
Q: Now these were in Flemish, that you were writing? 
A: I have several in American text on Frost. 
Q: Robert Frost? 
A: Robert Frost, and also Vachel Lindsay. I have five or six of his. And then I use Flemish texts sometimes, too. 
Q: Now, you teach campanology at the Springfield College in Illinois. Are you witnessing some new students coming into the field? 
A: Well, our music department, of course, is a small department. We have about forty-five students, and out of forty-five students, I have one carillon student. I hope to have another one next year because he, too, is now going to Belgium next year, Paul Johnson. So I hope to have another student next year. But considering, actually I have four students here but they are not all through the college, like well, my son and I have another man here in Springfield, then there is a lady from Champaign who comes for lessons. That is not bad considering the fact that there are not that many carillons in the world and there are not that many carilloneurs. A school like Mechelen has not more than about, I would say between ten and fifteen students a year. It's a very small business. Leen't Hart in Holland had twenty-four students this year and that's a large amount for a carillon school. But there are only about five hundred carillons in the world. And there are, maybe about six or seven hundred people who can really play, so you see. Also, publishing music for a carillon is not easy because publishers don't like to take it. There's no market like for any other instrument, like for the piano or voice or choral compositions, so it's only like Mechelen, the Carillon School, the Guild of Carilloneurs here in North America that have a publication. Yes, they published a book that I arranged for carilloneurs. There are compositions of classical composers like Beethoven, Bach and so on. And I have arranged for a very small carillon of twenty-four bells. There was a need for that, too, since there are quite an amount of two octave carillons, and you have to find the right pieces for that in order that the compass is not too large. So there are twenty-four compositions of classical composers and then one of my own, and it was published by the Guild of Carilloneurs here, the Guild of Carilloneurs in North America. But in general, it's not a lucrative business for publishers, and so a few compositions are published. I would say not more than 200 at the most, and the rest is all manuscript that we mimeograph and that we exchange from carilloneur to carilloneur. In fact, I get all the time, Raymond Keldermans 
letters for them. You can't keep it up, it costs you so much that sometimes you have to put the brakes on and say, "No, I'm not going to mail anything now," because running it through the duplicating machine and then mailing 
it, it would cost.  
Q:  Air mail?  
A:  For many,  that's true.  
Q: now,  That's very expensive, isn't it? I hate to bring this but I'm afraid the time has come to an end.  to a  close  
A:  The tape is running out,  yes.  
Q:  Yes.  I  want  to  thank you very much for allowing me  to  come  to your  

house here. This is a most interesting room in which we have been sitting with the musical instruments. 
A: Bells. (chuckles) 
Q: And it has also the bells, yes. (chuckles) I only wish that we might be able to take some photographs, but perhaps sometime we might be able to continue this in the carillon. 
A: Yes. I would like to say something of the history of carillons and bells, but we didn't get to that. That is unfortunate, too. 
Q: Yes, I would like that, too. Thank you once again. 
A: You're welcome. 
End of Side Two, Tape One