Text for Adelaide O'Brien Rentschler Memoir

              University of Illinois at Springfield 
Norris L Brookens Library 
Archives/Special Collections 

Adelaide O’Brien Rentschler Memoir 
R298. Rentschler, Adelaide O'Brien, (1915-1999) 
Interview and memoir  
2 tapes, 130 mins., 34 pp.  

Rentschler, member of Christ Episcopal Church in Springfield, recalls the church's rituals, activities, choir and members. Also discusses her interest in Springfield theater groups. Rentschler also recalls her training and career in aviation as one of the first licensed woman pilots in Illinois and the training of pilots during WWII.  
Interview by Sandra Britz Armbuster, 1982  
OPEN 
See collateral file 

Archives/Special Collections LIB 144 
University of Illinois at Springfield 
One University Plaza, MS BRK 140 
Springfield IL 62703-5407 

© 1982, University of Illinois Board of Trustees 

Preface 
IJhis manuscript is the product of a series of tape-reconied intenriews oon:iucted by SarXlra Britz Al:Inbruster for the oral Histoey Office, s~State university on May 27, 1982. Margaret Reeder transcribed the tapes am Lima s. Jett e:iited the transcripts. 
Adelaide 0 1Brien Rentschler is an CAitstarxiin;r exanple of the people who have contributed so much of themselves to Christ Church am to the camm.mity as a whole. She has surg in the choir am has been an active participant in the life of the Church. Her titles include a school teacher, an aviation instructor, a business wanan, ani a leader in local theatre. She is a fascinatin;J wanan who played a very active role in the histoey of wanen in aviation. I hope those who read this narrative appreciate her vitality am contributions to the society in which she lives. 
Readers of the oral histoey lllel't'Oir should bear in mini that it is a transcript of the spoken word, am that the interviewer, narrator am editor sought to preserve the infonnal, conversational style that is inherent in such historical sources. San;yam:m State university is not responsible for the factual accuracy of the memoir, nor for views expressed therein; these are for the reader to judge. 
'!he manuscript may be read, quoted ani cited freely. It may not be reproduced in whole or in part by any means, electronic or mechanical, without pennission in writin;J from the Oral Histoey Office, ~ State university, Sprin;Jfield, Illinois 62794-9243. 
Table of Contents 
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Christ Church Choir 1 Olan;Jes in Churc:h Ritual. 2 'Ihe Skeeters. 3 Member Participation in Church Activities 4 Henry Barrow' House am the COllege Club Players • 6 Sprirgfield 'Iheatre Guild 7
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HeJ:man and Virginia Eifert. 9 Choir Members .12 Church Rectors. .14 stalwart Members of the Clrurch. .15 Changes in Churc:h Rituals .17 Aerial Career .20
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Aerial Training .28 
Adelaide 0 1Brien Rentschler, May 27, 1982. 
samra Britz A:J::mbruster, Interviewer. 
Q: Melaide, how long have you been a member of Christ Church? 
A: I was oonfil:med in Christ Church in November of 1948. 
Q: Who was the pastor there? 
A: John Hauser. 
Q: He wasn't there very 1org was he? 
A: Gee, I don't krlow. I don't know how 1org he had been there before I was cxmfinned. 
Q: 'Ihe other day when we talked didn't we say almost three years? 
A: I think he came in 1948 an:1 departed in 1951, something like that. 
Q: I think that1s right. Tell me sane of the memories you have about him. I have not heard very many pecple do much mo:re than mention his 
name. 
A: Oh rtr:/• I thought he was a very kindly man. He had a very beautific face, he radiated faith an:11ove ani kirXlness. He was more than kirrl to my mother. Mother am I were confinned at the same time as members of that church caning from the Iutheran Church. He was just kindness itself to my mother as well as to me, am sametimes when I had kin:i of a personal problem I went down am had a loz:g talk with hlln. He was very kiid am considerate, listened, gave me sane 61J.9qestions, I won't say advise, just suggestions about how to get things back on an even keel am I always treasured my friemsmp with John as well as the fact that he was my pastor. He had a darling wife, Ruth. I was in the choir which is one of the ways I got to beocme a member of Olrist Church. Hannan Eifert was choir director am I had known Hannan because Hannan, too, had started out in the Grace Iutheran Church an:1 I don't to this rranerrt know how he ever got to Christ Church, l:R.It he did. He convinced me that I should join Christ Church choir an:1 I san;J in the choir for a year, I guess, before I ever joined the church. 
Q: Did they have paid choir then? 
A: Paid choir, no. 'Ihere were paid leads. 'lbere was a soprano ~t was paid an:1 there was, ncM I don•t know whether this is true when 1I first joined or not, because I wasn't that aware of what was going on, 
not being a member of the church. But later I realized that ~was a paid soprano and a paid alto, am a paid tenor am a paid bass. 
Q: Oh, so they had four leads? 
A: '!hey had four leads to prop this thin;J up. But John and Ruth used to entertain the choir at their hc:llle. well, it would be the manse, of 
course, but it was their hane. '!hey used to entertain the choir a couple of tilnes a year. 'Dley were just gracious host am hostess am 'Were part of the gan;J. You know', they \~~ere just d.atm to earth, real great people. 
Q: Where did they cane fran? 
A: I have no idea Where they came fran. 1hey went to the west ccest 
but where they had originated I don't recall. I think I knew at a1e time but I can't tell ~l'10W'. I'd be afraid to say becallSe it probably wouldn't be r~ght. 
Q: What kirxi of char'IJes have you seen in Olrist Church since you've been there, like the doctrine or the liturgy or aey chan;Jes in the, service or the ritual? 
A: I don't tllink there has been arr:{ great charges other than the charges that have been brought about by general synod, of which I'ln not overly fon:i. I still like the 1928 Prayer Book, sorry about that. 
Q: No, that's sanethin;J I wanted to ask you about. Why do you prefer it? 
A: I just liked the language better. I think it was more beautifully written. '!hey accepted, I don't knc:w that it's necessarily the Ki.n:J James Version, maybe it's the Quaker talk, but "thees" arrl the "thous" 
instead of the 'tyous". 'lhe lan;JUage I feel is far more beautiful, it's more lyric. I am one who feels that the 'WOrld should oonfonn to the church, the church should not confonn to the 'WOrld. I think this is one of the problems in the 'WOrld today ani therefore I did not see the necessity for rewriting the beautiful Prayer Book in order to 'Jake it line up with the vernacular of the present day. SO I still hold for the 1928 Prayer Book. Neither do I see the necessity for having a couple of ways of doing t:hi.n:Js, the Holy Eucharist Rite I am Holy Eucharist Rite II. I don't see the point in that. one of the changes that has occurred since, I don•t know' whether I want to be quoted on this or not, is that we l'10W have a senoon at the 8:30 service. 
Q: Oh we didn't use to? 
A: No, we did not. we bad the oc:mmm.ion seJ:V'ice and that was it, pericxi. 
Q: Oh, I didn't know' that had cllarqed. Ib you krlow how 1~ it's been? I've been there close to five years am it's always been there. 
A: 'lhat was cllan;1ed, I think, with the departure of Frank Shaffer. have a personal reason for sayin:J that which I would just as soon J1lOt. 
have on a tape. I'll be happy to tell you off the record but I'd prefer not to have it on the tape. (laughter) 
Q: I'll probably be the only one that hears these tapes for a lagtime. 
A: Well, just in case. But one of Mother's dearest friends had been baptized am confirmed am had grown up in Christ Episcopal Qru:rch. Her name was Jane calley am she always went to the 8:30 service for the reason that there was no senoon. 
Q: Ani she preferred not to have it? 
A: She preferred not to have the senoon. She felt that she was closer to God when man didn't interfere by shootin:J off his m:uth. (laughter) But Mother and I had always gone to the 10:30 service because I was in choir. 'lhen Jane got to a place where she would meet Mother am go to the 10:30 service so that Mother wouldn't have to sit alone in the oon;;rregation. But durin:} my tenure the SUl'Day School buildirg was oonstnlcted. 
Q:  Tell me what you remember about that.  
A:  Just that I  had a pledge I  had to fulfill.  
Q:  Now that was un:ier Hauser wasn't it?  Because it was started in  

1949 ani dedicated in 1950. 
A: Yes, am ,Sid Vireo, Sidney Vireo, that1s V as in Victor I -R-e-o, I don't krlc:M whether you've oane across his name before, he was SUperintendent of the SUl'Da¥ School. He also was active in the 'lheatre GUild because by this time 'lheatre Guild had been organized ani was well un:ier way but he was the SUl'Day SChool SUperintendent at that time. Mother taught SUnday School for awhile down there. She taught the teenaqers. She had Mary Winnirr:r's daughters and the I.einicke boys ani Skeeters. '!he Skeeter boys, you knew', the one state trooper that was just killed recently? 
Q: Oh really, he was in her class? 
A: Yes. '!here were thirteen of those children in their family. '!here were thirteen Skeeters. 
Q: Now I went to school, no they called him Skeeter Redman, that's why I always get him confused with the others. 
A: '!here were thirteen children in the Skeeter family ard Mrs. Skeeter was a Witcanb, W-I-T-C-0-M-B. '!he oorgzegational meetirgs used to be dinners sanet.ime in January in the parish hall. Following dinner, the various deparbnents of the church would give their ani'Ilal Ieports. '!his is just a sideline. I don't know whether you can use it or not, but I remember it well. Eveey S\.n'xlay the Skeeter family came to church, all thirteen, plus Papa ard Mama. I always admired. am respected Papa ani Mama that they got thirteen kids spick and polished and in time for 10:30 or 10:45 church sezv'ice. I always bad the feelirr:J they nrust have started the night before and worked all: 
night to get the job done. 'lhey weren't always on time, sanetimes they walked in just ahead of the processional ani sanetimes they walked in just behin:i the processional, (laughs) l:ut they were tbecre every sunday ~,bless their hearts. 
Q: Do any of t:heln still go? 
A: No. I remember one parish dinner, the con:JrE!gational meeting as we called them. When the m=eting was over ani people were disbancl:irq, Mother ani I were lingering there for sane reason or other. SUddenly Mrs. Skeeter, who was a porDerous wanan, she was Jd.n:ny but she was large in stature, came thundering dcMn the stairs to the basement ani said, "I•ve lost one!" (laughter) She went into the boys restroan ani came out with one Skeeter fir.mly attached to her thumb ani forefinger ani up the steps they went ani I've never forgotten it, bless her heart. 
Q: How would she keep track of thirteen? 
A: How would she, yes. But you said Lenten sezvices with potlucks were better atten:led certaWy than they are rrM. 
Q: Why do you think that1s fallen off? 
A: well, I don't know Why a lot of things have fallen off. I was smprised when Hoby made the oc::anment that there were about 250 families in our church, because I can remember a time 'When the membership of our church was so great ani the attendance was so greatthat they had three seJ:Vices on Sl.nXlay and two SUnday SChools because they couldn't accatmVJdate them. '!hen they enlarged and built the sunday SChool building to tey to take up the slack on the sunday School. What has happened, I don1t knc7tl, I have no idea.. 
Q: Do you think it's just Olrist Omrch ani do you think that's sort of a symptan of all chul:hes? 
A: I would be inclined to say that it is the symptan of many churches ani I'm at a loss to utXlerstand why. 'Ihe churches that are organized and fourXJ.ed ani have been here for years ani years and years are losing members ani churches like calvary Temple are busting out at the seams ani cla~membership of 4,000 people an:l all that good stuff. '!hey have even built their own academy. I don't knolrl what the reason is. 
Q: Do you think it's the Evan:Jelical movement for spiritual reasons? 
A: I don't knc:M. I've just been teying to get a chainnan for the Country OJI;:board for Olrist Cllurch. I have called cotmtless people and asked them to serve in that capacity ani I have heard "no" in countless ways. I still do not have a chail:man. 
Q: Do you think it's because wanen are workin:J? 
A: 'Ihe wanen I have called are not workin:J ani our church guilds are small, they're dWin:Uing, an:i EGW is small. Nc:::JW I can urderstan:i to a great neasure Why this would be true of st. Joan's an:i st. Cecelials 
Adelaide o'Brien Rentschler 
because they are daytime guilds ard EC.W meets during the day, but ' there is a night guild ani our ycJl11'g marrieds are not caning to that. Although they're working, you knclw we have many two-salaey hanes a$ you very well know, but these yourr:J marrieds are not caning to the' evening guild either. I have talked with some of them in try:UV to secure a chainnan ani they will not be chainnan. 'Ihey'll work m the d.i.ni.n:J roan or they'll work on this or work on that but they will not take over the chainnanship. Nor will they cane to guild meetings. But for the one big deal of the year they'll be there in sane capacity. I don't knclw what's doing it, I really don't. 
Q:  I  knclw I  don't ocme.  
A: mis I knc:lw you don't cane. understand.  I'm not lecturing you, don't  
Q:  No,  I know' you're not.  It seems like I have so little time at  

bane. 
A: I knc:lw ani I awreciate that. 
Q: Ani I'm always behin:l on everything. sometimes I just simply need "down time". I may not get the work done I need to do but I have to have time to just not be under pressure. While I have a jcb that soun:is relatively simple, I'm a secretary, I have so many people I work for. 
A: let me tell you about pressure as a secretary, I was one for 35 years. I :know what you are saying. 
Q: Where were you a secretary? 
A: At GMAC, secretary to the brard1 manager. 
Q: You also said you taught school? 
A: I taught school before I went to GMAC. 
Q: HOirl many years did you teach school? 
A: Five. 
Q: Ani where did you teach? 
A: Iles. 
Q: Oh did you tell me? It seems like I remember it rrM? 
A: Yes, back in the days of grade schools, sixth, seventh ani eighth grades were departmentalized. I taught sixth, seventh, ard eighth grade E:n;Jlish. 
Q: An:1 then F've been active in the 'lheatre Guild. We talked Cf1e time al:x:lut this. 
61 
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A: 'Ihe theatre over at Olrist Clrurch. well the ''ham" in me has 
1 
always been close to the surface ard they had what they called ~ COllege Club Players ard they presented their plays at the Olrist • Clrurch Parish Hall. '!here was a gocxl stage arrl a gocxl auditoritmt' there, the space that I'lCIW houses the choir rocm arrl the rocm to the east of it, all that level. 'Ihe three steps up to the choir rocm would give you an in::lication of where the stage would have been. It was back at that end arrl the rest of that was all auditoritmt with wirrlows on both sides of the rocan arrl folding chairs, no permanent seatin:J. In rrr:1 preteen arrl teenage mind they were gocxl plays arrl I'm sure they must have been because they were always well attended. 'Ihey were directed by Henry B. House arrl believe it or not his middle rmne was Barrow, which I always thought was funny, Heney Barrow House. 
Q: Did you see the article in the Illinois Times about him? 
A: No, I don't get the Times. 
Q: At work they brin:J it in arrl people will go out and get it arxi 
brirg in copies arxi I pulled it out arxi saved it. I'11 have to let: 
you look at it. 

A: Oh great. 
Q: It's just a delightful story, shows pictures of him dressed up 
like a wanan. It was done by Ed Russo from the Sargamon Valley. I 
guess he was quite a dashirg ard flamboyant figure? 

A: He was mazried to susan B. COOk ani SUSie was a friend of 1T!Y l'I'Other1s. SUSie was the one with the money ard havin:J mazried money gave him time to do all the little extraneous things that he liked to do like become involved in theatricals ard all that gocxl stuff. I did not know either of them well enough to know whether it was originally a mazriage of love which turned into one of convenience ard it's none of my business. But at any rate, they gave their plays dC7tm there. At that time I was goirg to Grace I1Itheran Clrurch alag with people like wayne I.einicke who • s also fran Grace :r.utheran Orurch. our ~ people1s group was called the Iuther League ani we used to give plays to make money ard we would rent the auditoritun over at Olrist Church 
to do our plays. 
Q: so that was a very active little church. 
A: '!hat was as close as I ever came to bein:J in one of the COllege Club Player's plays. (laughter) 
Q: You weren't in any of them, you just remember them. Tell me some more about House? 
A: I really don't know all that llU.lch about him. 
Q: Do you remember seeing him? 
A: Oh yes, I saw him many times ard in fact one time at the ~ ~of seventeen, I had the temerity to t1:y out for a play. '!hat · didn't get very far but at least I tried. He was a "dapper dan". i we 
have a huge oil paintin;J of him in the Boal:d of Director's roan over at the 'lheatre Guild. SUSie willed it to the 'Iheatre Guild becaus it was the only 'Iheatrical group still in existence ard she thought that we would probably treasure it since he had been so active in amateur theatre in the o:mnnunity. So it l'JarJ;Js on the wall in c:m-Board of Director's roan. You ought to go over ani look at it sanetime. He seemed to me, just sitti.rg back on the sidelines, he seemed to me to be very caustic, very "cock sure", not the kin::l of person you could cotton too an:i really wann up to, too easy. You might respect him an:i you might admire him but love would be way down on the totem pole. I could be misjudging him but this was rrr:1 teenage reaction to him. 
Q: Did he have quite a following of ladies? 
A: I don't ki'lc7tl that tm.1Ch about his ~life to know'. His COllege Club Players were really a cl1que. It was almst a repertoiretheatre actually. It was a ''hard nut to crack" arrl there were many of us who tried to crack it arrl didn•t get the jab done. 
Q: It wasn•t open to the p.lblic? 
A: Well they would say, you know, there WOlld be an announcement in the paper that there were going to be auditions held for "'!he Royal Family of Broadway," for instance. You'd go down to the auditions: and there are the same faithful few that are auditioning ani you could. al.100st sit there arrl tell who was going to get this part an1 who was going to get this part arxl who was going to get this part. If you had followed their sh.ows before because you know they're pretty well typecast ani you can figure out that the kin:i of part she can play, she'11 get that. After Hemy passed away that group sort of fell to pieces an:i a nucleus pUled it back together and organized what they calle:J. the Repertoire Guild which has nothing to do with Christ Church, nothing whatsoever except that sane of the people who've been active in this group fcmned that group. '!hey did their shows in the place on South 15th Street, south of I.aurel which I think, or the last I heard, was the GeJ:man Singin;J Society buildin;r. It may not still be there. I've never gone down 15th street to look ard see if it's still there. It was a small buildin;r ard had been a small llD'Il arrl pop grooezy store. '!hen they worked ani made a little tiny stage that wasn't as big as this livirg roan. '1hey did good things. 
Q: 'lhen when did you get involved with 'Iheatre Guild? 
A: Back in 1945 a group of us got together. '!he war was ostensively over, ard a group of us got together ani thought it was tiJne to revive conm.mity theatre in Springfield. '!he Repertoire Guild had gone down the tube when the war came alon:J. So While the men were taken, of course, so a group of us met night after night out in the PIT, out in the old Brinkerhoff House. 
Q: At the PIT? 
A: At Sprin;rfield Junior COllege we had a dramatic group arxi we bl.lilt 
our sets arrl had our meetinJs in the basement of the Brinkerhoff~ which was part of the property of the college at that tilDe. we . .... 
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Melaide o'Brien Rentschler 
81I 
it the PIT because it was down in the basement. It's the PIT. Not 
the pits, although it was that too. (laughter) ' 
Q: ante theatre pit. 
A: Right. SO a group of us got together ani one person talking tpanother an:i we got a nucleus ~an:i night after night we goti tomeet cut there In the PIT am finally got that thi.rg organized. · 
Q: Where did you start puttinJ on plays originally? 
A: We had our first play on a portable stage in the ballroan of the Abraham Lincoln Hotel. It was "'Ihree Men on a Horse". 'lhat's a whole 
new story. It has absolutely nothing to do with Olrist Clrurch, but 
that was our first one. 'Ihe seconi one that we did there was "Abe 
Lincoln in Illinois" and the next time, I'm happy to say, we had 
outgrown the facilities at the Abe Lincoln and we rented the KC 
auditorium because you see, the Knights of Coll.lllibJs had a huge three 
story buildin;;J on the corner of 6th an:i Edwards, the southwest where Ma Bell now has sane 1d.ni of a facility. 'lhey had a huge stage and a 
huge auditorium on the third floor of that builc:tin;J. So we did our 
plays there. '!hen the Bishop of the Catholic Diocese of Sprin:Jfield
offered to let us use the builc:tin;J out at 15th and. Iaurel which had been part of the building for st. Bal:bara's Church arxi SChool which was out there at 15th an::1 Iaurel, if we1d clean the place up an::1 keepit in good repair. So then we IOOVE!d out there an::1 we 'W9l."8 there for several years while we licked and. scraped and. scraped an:i saved and bought the lot where the present 'lhea.tre is. 
Q: When did that open? 
A: It was opened in November of 1951. I directed the openi.rg show,
"Bom Yesterday," an::1 Paul Becker played the role of the junk dealer,
Brock. 

Q: SO you've been really active in the theatre for a lon;r time. I remember seein;J you in 'lhea.tre Guild plays that you have been director of. It must have been like twenty, when I was just old enough to start goilq to thi.n:Js like that. 
A: Well, I directed "Abe Lincoln in Illinois". '!bat walid have been
in 1946. I had directed for the I11ther I.eague but I directed "Abe Lincoln in Illinois" for the 'Iheatre Guild an:i then contirnled there asits director when we fonned. our own group, the "Abe Lincoln Players".
so that if there were a:ey losses, 'Ihea'l;re Guild walidn•t have to absom the losses. we presented the play out at New Salam for yearsan::1 years an::1 years. 
Q: Oh, you did do that on out there? 
A: sure, that's where I met your husbard. 
Q: Ch, that's right. I remember tellinJ him you were frcm "Abe Lincoln in Illinois" at New Salam. 
A: sure, how about that? 
Q: Tell ne sane of your l't'lell:m'ies about Hennan Eifert with his choir. 
A: Hennan was a great choir director. When the I..ord made lWn theythrew the mold away. When we were in Grace IJ.rt:heran Qrurch, his sister, IDuise, was in I1.rther Ieague with the same group I was in. '!bey lived out on North Milton Avenue ani had a big old ranlblin;r l'x>use out there. It was pretty ll'D.1Ch fam area out there then and it wam•t built up as it rrM. Herman had a small roan all of his own with his piano and all of his music in it. We would go out to Louise's house for parties and Hennan wculd never ~,he wculd be l::lehird the door playi.rg his piano and practicixg his music. He just wculdn't have anyt:hin;J to do with us ani he was older than we were. As a matter of fact much older. 
Q: How old was he? Do you remember? 
A: No, I can't honestly tell you. He was the oldest of the familyani then Louise ani then Johnny. Johnny was my age and there was a space in between them so I guess Hennan 11USt have been ten or twelve years older than I was. Herman did not sin;J, he did not have a sirqi.rg voice but he knew nusic inside an:i outside dawn an:i backwards and he could get eveeybody else to sin;J. He1d be the talent and he was a perfectionist ani we would 'WOrk ani work an:l work. We'd sing a passage and get it wron:J and he'd stop us and :point out what we had done wrorq ani make us go back arrl do it a~in ani if we did it properly he'd say, 11NC711 Why didn't you do 1.t that way the first time?" 'Iha.t was his favorite ccmnent. Back in those days there was a choir mother, one of the wanen fran the church ani I guess in those days it was not EC.W. You see, I was so new in the church and so young that I wasn't really involved in the women in the church. I was in the choir ani that was the extent of my activities but we had a choir mother who was one of the women of the church ani I guess from what Betty I.einicke says, that they used to call it the wanan•s Auxiliary, so I guess she was fran that group. But arr:fW8Y, she would get hostesses to help her and after every choir rehearsal we had refreshments of hanemade cookies or hanemade cake ani coffee ani a very pleasantvisiti.rg hour, half hour, or so after choir rehearsal was aver When we could stay ani be frierrls. Ycu knc:lw, it wasn't a cane in, sin;r, gohane pt:op:lSition like it is l'lCJW. For years and years ani years our choir DDther was a dear soul by the name of Olive SChultz, a little ''bird" of a 'Wtl'lW1. Boy she saw to it that there was saoebady there wery choir rehearsal night and have sanet:hing for us. 
Q: Isn't that nice? 
A: It was, it was great. 
Q: D:l you remember Herman's wife? 
A: Virginia? Yes, at the age of ten we lived on South 4th street in a house that sat on the parkirg lot, the present par~ lot of the Jewish Tenple there at 4th arxl scarritt. 'lhe Snyders l1.ved close to the comer of 5th ani Scarritt ani Virginia had a younger brother,. Robert, who was in my grade at school. so I knew her, not intimatEUy b.lt fran the kids in the neighbol:hood ~toqether ani playin;JIhither, there am yorder and occasionally playing over on snyder's I 
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Adelaide o'Brien Rentschler 
10 
front pordl., so I knew" Virginia when I was a kid. She was an admirable wanan. I wasn't .iJrpressed with her when I was a kid. She was a teenager that knew so much more than us kids did, you krlc:M, was sure that she did, make it obvious that she did, but she really was remarkable. She had no advanced education at all ani yet she turned. out to be a great nature lover, student of nature, wrote many fine books that are ~and used as textbooks, ani all, ani I think it's great. All w~th no formal education an:i her HeJ:man really didn't either. 
Q:  Yes,  HeJ:man did, 1::ut Virginia didn't.  
A:  HeJ:man went to college?  
Q:  Yes.  
A:  Virginia took little or no part in his activities down at the  

church. I remember very, very few times that Virginia came to church services, even to the Olrisbnas Eve services. our Olrisbnas Eve services when HeJ:man was choir director, I think were great. When I first went down there ani was in the choir, the old o:t:gan sat an the north side of the choir loft. It was the old fashioned pipe o:t:gan, it wasn't the electronic deals like '\<le have llOW. on Olrisbnas Eve he would hire, ani Mrs. Iogan Hay always paid for, the GeoJ::ge Keluis Trio which was a string trio quite noted in our town and we would have a choir concert fran 11:00 to 11:30 with the trio playing with Hennan who was an the o:t:gan. 'lhen at 11:30 the services started and then we would sin:J several things at the seJ:Vice too. Many nan-members of our church would come to the church for the music and as the service proper started they'd get up ani tiptoe out. I've seen that church filled full an Christmas Eve. 'lhey :put foldin:J chairs in the aisle and across the back of the church and still had people stan:ling until the choir part would be over ani then they1d leave. 
Q: Oh yesI Bill ani Gladys Day talked abrut the huge crowds they used to have. 
A: Boy, if you wanted to get a seat, you got in that church no later than 10:30 <l'lristmas Eve. 
Q: Oh, really0 
A: Oh, yes. 
Eni of side one, Tape one 
Q: I believe Bill ani Gladys mentioned that you went with them up to western Illinois for the dedication? 
A: Yes, they had a big d.o up there in honor of Virginia Eifert am Bill ani Gladys had received an invitation and they invited Hank m:i me to go with them. 
Q: Isn't that nice? 
11 
A: It was. It was lovely and there was many tributes to her and they showed slides of~that she had done. It was so good to see, it's too bad it couldn't have hatpmed when she was alive but I think human nature has a terrlency to sen:i flowers too late. BUt I was qlad that she did receive that restitution. 
Q: 'Ihey have a permanent eldrlbit of hers? 
A: Yes. 
Q: Isn't that amazi.rg and no fonnal e::lucation beyon:l high school? 
A: And her drawin;Js are exquisite, her paint~ of nature are absolutely exquisite and her books are fascinati.DJ. 
Q: 'What are the names of sane of them, do you remember? 
A: I can1t tell you the names of them of:fhani but she arrarqed to take a trip on a~line. She got on in st. louis and went all the way down the Mississ~ppi to New Orleans and observed the wildlife and sketched and photographed the flora and the fauna all along the way. 'lhen another trip she got on the barge at st. louis and went clear up to the head waters of the Mississippi and did the same thing. 
Q: Did they have aey children? 
A: 'Ihey had one son, Iarry. 
Q: Did Bill tell me he's a CCI'l'IInel:'Cial artist? 
A: He is a cx::munercial artist and he1s out west somewhere I believe. He supposed to have been there at Western for this celebration but he did not get there, so there was sane kind of a conflict. But he sent sane of his drawin]s, and I hate to tell you this. 
Q: Are they? 
A: In my opinion, but I 1m no art critic you understand. 
Q: BUt she had a delicacy. 
A: Right and every feather of a bird, every line of the feather, the shading of the feather, was the same in anythinq she does, and the same of the flower, the delicacy of color, the delicacy of stnlcture was all there, fabulous. Particularly somebody like me who can't draw a straight line crooked. (laughter) 
Q: can•t draw a straight line crooked? 
A: No, sure can•t. 
Q: Did you go to the party for . 
A: Oh yes. 
Q: Where did they live? 
12 
A: '!bey lived an west Vine between Walnut and MacArthur on the north side of the street. I can't remember exactly what the address was. But when the choir 'WOUld meet at their house, Virqinia 'WOUld have all the lovely goodies ready and on lovely trays but she was hostess in absentia, she was never there. 
Q: Oh she wasn't? was she sort of a recluse? 
A: I don't know whether she was a recluse, I've never been able to decide whether she was. '!here were those people who t:hc:ught that she was a snob and that she felt that she was too good for us. I don't 
believe that. I think that she was a little shy, didn't meet peopleeasily perhaps, felt a little awkward. I don't think she shared Hennan•s music. She shared his biological interests and scientific interests but I don•t think she shared his music of interest. I don•t think she was musically inclined and well, when you turned us loose we could get pretty l:'OINdy. Maybe she didn't 8.R;)reeiate that either. Not bad, bUt loud and laughirg a lot and havi.rg flm and si.rgi.rg and I think maybe she thought life was lTOre serious than that. Another t.hing that she thought she was older than we were although there were older people in the choir, goodness gracious. '!hey lN'ere of all ages when I joined the choir. Mr. John Braddish was, I guess, in his late sixties or seventies. Alta was in the choir. 
Q: Oh. she was? 
A: Oh, bless her heart, yes. 
Q: Alta MCGavin. 
A: Alta McGavic. M-e-G-A-v-I-c. 
Q: Oh it's a "C" on the errl? 
A: Yes, and Alta had been a frieni of mine. I can't rember a time in my life when I didn•t la'1c:M Alta. 
Q: Oh. really, she lived not too far fran you. 
A: She lived across the street, yes. But way back when I was still, as I say, I can•t remember a tilDe when I didn't know Alta and she sangin the choir of, I think they called it st. John's. It was a little Episcopal churdl at 5th and North Grand Avenue. 
Q: Right. It was a mission churdl. 
A: Ani she sarg in the choir there len; before she came to Ctlrist Clrurch. I think she s.arq in the cathedral choir for awhile and then came ever to Olrist Cl1Urch. (pause) '!here was Betty Mili:oy in the choir and TerJ:y Green, and Tish Wimberly. Jackie west and cynthia Hobson was in the choir. C:rrause) I can't call any of the other names but we had a lot of fun. V~vian Withey was in the choir, W-I-T-H-El-Y, and of course you know Bill and Gladys were in the choir. I can•t think what Alice's maiden name was but she married Viv Withey'sbrother. She's rrM Alice McAlister and they live in Jacksonville. 
She was a music teacher in the p.lblic shools and she had a beautiful alto voice and she was in the choir. 
Q: Hew many members do you think there were then? 
A: In the choir? About 40. 
Q: An:i what do they have nt::M? 
A: W'el.l, as Olrisbnas tilDe started to roll around the choir had increased because HeJ:man wt:W.d draft other people to cx:ma in and make it fuller and the choir loft would be full for the Cllristmas Eve service. I mean jammed packed for it. 
Q: Did Hannan make his entire living with music? 
A: No, he taught school. 
Q: Did he teach music? 
A: No, he taught sciences. 
Q: Oh, so he did have the sciences? 
A: Oh yes, oh yes. He taught at Ball Township High School. 'Ihen when that became Glenwood High SChool as part of the Ball Township SChool district and they built Glenwood High SChool, he went over there. I don•t know hew many years he taught before he accepted a postion dcMn at the Illinois state RJseum. 
Q: What did he do there? 
A: I don•t know what his title was actually, but he worked dcMn there as their naturalist. Vil:ginia was the editor of the na:rt:hly magazine that the museum p.tt out. 
Q: 'lhat was a nature magazine? 
A: Yes. 
Q: '!hey really souni like interesting people. 
A: Oh. yes, and very talented people, 1::Joth of them. 
Q: But you really didn•t know Vil:ginia as a frieni? 
A: No, mt really. She was a member of zonta Club for a while, of which I am a member and she never was really what you would call frien:Uy with arrx of them either. '!here was kini of a plastic shield arc:mrl Vil:qinia all the time that you never could quite get through. She was polite and she was CXJUiteous and always ladylike, very quiet, but you never felt that you really knew her. You always won:lered what was go~ on behird those dark eyes. She was a beautiful woman, with her hair severely pulled back, dark and severely pulled back in a bun, dark flashing eyes. . 
--------------______________ ______L_______ 
Q: was she very biq, very tall? 
A: I'd say she was about five feet six inches perhaps arxi nicely structured.. 
Q: You noticed her in a group? 
A: 	YCIU 'WOUld notice her in a group. Well, let's see. What can I? I (pause) don•t know "Whom I can cx:mpare her to. She would not be noticed as Jackie Kennedy 'Walld have been noticed. I think perhaps SCitl:'!fr.'hat like Nancy Reagan, alt:hoi.J;Jh I think Nancy Reagan has l110l:e warmth than she had. But there was a presence of bearing about her that you knew she was there but there was no warmth that would call you across the roan to her. You liiiOUld be aware that she was st:an1.irg there, but you had no pull to go aver am see her ard speak with her. 
Q: SCDebody with so lT8.lCh empathy with nature you would have thought of her as bein;;J a very wam. human. Iet's see, after Hauser left did you meet Bill Jao:i:s? 
A: Yes. 
Q: Arri he was here a.J.:nart six years. 
A: Oh qccx:'Jness gracious. I don't really know, I don't pay any attention to time. 
Q: I was just asking approximately because I don't remember dates either. It just k.ind of puts a point of mference on things. 
A: N01r1 his wife was very Junior I.eaqueish am I won•t go any furtber with that. 
Q: I t..:II'derstan:. I've heard that before. Do you remember, was it duri.rg Hauser's time that you had the three services or was it duringBill Jacob's time? It was k:in:i of a canbination really wasn't it? 
A: Yes, I think one faded right into another on that. I would be reluctant to say one way or the other. 
Q: But they both drew people to the chu:l:."c:h didn•t they? 
A: Yes. Jerey Wallace was a dynam:), I guess. I never knew Jerey Wallace, but Mat:h.er had gone to services with Jane. Mat:h.er used to go to I.enten services with Jane cxxa.sionally when ReVe:reni Wallace was there. 'lhat was in Itt;/ "I'm not goir:g to chu:l:."c:h anyJIX)re11 period. 
Q: Oh that was when you didn•t . • • 
A: I figure -we all went through a stage of that. 
Q: I think it's part of our examination period. we have to reach 'our awn conclusions. 'lhat's one of the thi.n;Js that no1:xxly else can do~ You have to search it out. can I ask you when you were bom? I : should have asked you at the begirJrlirJ1 of the tape ani I probably should. 
A: Do you really have to ask that question? 
Q: 	No, I don't really have too. I guess that's why I didn't. (laughter) 
A: I don't care. You're not goirg to spread it a.rouni, I hope. I was born August 14th, 1915. 
Q: 'lhat ldni of helps me p.tt a prospective on thirgs here. If Jacobs was here for six years, you just really didn't go to c::tmrch. lliJCh in that period. 
A: No, I went to c::tmrch. but I said Jerey wallace's time, I was not goirg to any c::tmrch. durirg Jeny's time. Mather went down there for the Isnten Se'rvioes. I did not go, so I wasn't close to Jeny Wallace :because that was m.v "I'm not goirg to c::tmrch." period. 
Q: DJ.rirg the 1940s. So you were back am active When Bill Jacobs was there. 
A: <!1, yes, sure, because once I joined Olrist Qn.n:ch I stuck with it.• 'lhe gap was between Illtheranism am the Episcopalianism. 'lhat's 'What the gap was. My problem is that I set doirq sanething like that and if I'm writirg a letter to a friend I'll be writirg alcn;r ani alcn;r and the next thirg you know I'm writirg to the children. 
Q: Well I don•t have that kini of • • . 
A: No, that's the problem, then I have to go back ani start it all aver. 
Q: Well when I really want to put sanething back, I go to the typewriter because I don't have to l:Jother with spel.lirq. My fingers are educated, they know llcM to spell. If you'd ask me to spellcertain 'WOrds, I can't spell them, but I a:uld type them for you.'lhat•s dcesn•t DBke gooci sense does it? Now let•s see after Bill JaOCibs we•ve got Frank Shaffer. What c1o you remember about him? 
A: Frank was a scholar, he shcW.d have been on a faculty of a seminary SCD!Where. 
Q: He didn't have the charisma that the two previous ones had? 
A: Not for me he didn't. 
Q: He didn't really stay long after he became rector did he? 
A: I don't know just llcM long because there again I haven't paid anyattention to the dates of the cx:an:ings and. goirgs of the rectors. 
Q: When Bill Ja.cohs sent me back his tapes, he talked about sane of the older ladies that had been such stalwart members of the ch.urch. Mrs. Holb:rook, do you remember her? 
A: Yes. 
Q: Can you describe her? 
A: Vaguely. Nat really, I can't p.tt. a face with it. I remember, though, a Mrs. Holbrook. Mrs. I..ogan Hay as I mentioned earlier always paid the Kelius Trio for the Olrisboas Eve service. She was a stately "W'Oillan. I never saw her 'When she didn't have a Queen Mary hat on, youkrlow 'What a Queen Mary hat is? 
Q: '!hose big ones? 
A: No, no, those pill l:xJx ty);.le t:hings. Mrs. George Pa.l:mer, Maude, Who was short am rotourrl, J:'CIIll'Xi-faoed, ilrperious, tried to :nm the church. was at the school that those Who ClOl'ltributed the most l1'0I'JeY to the church should have the most to say about heM' it was run. But I'm not goin;J to ar:gue whether that•s a good premise or a bad premise but that was her premise. Of course, Mr. ard Mrs. Hezndon. Mrs. Hel:n':ion was a tall gracious woman. She always sarg with the C'lOl'lgregation. Really, bless her heart, she would sinJ when no one else was ani she wasn•t always on key, but I don't want that quoted either. 
Q: wel.l, I •m not either but I sin;)'. 
A: She 'WOrked hard in the church, I don•t think she was as V'OOal in t:r:yirg to :nm t:h.i.rv;s as Mrs. Pa.l:mer. I don't think anybody "WOrked as much as Mrs. Palmer. 
Q: She'd lave my kids. She had lot's of :nm-ins with Mrs. Palmer. 
A: Ch, I'm sure that anyone Who was active dotm there did. F.ra.n the time I came on the scene, you see, Mrs. Palmer, through these idolization pr:ocesses of age that mellowed a little bit, I guess, although she had her serious m:JIDe11ts. I'm sure she had her serious :n:anents with Bill Jacol:lS. Nevertheless she was faithful in her att:e.rx:la:nce. She was there every SW'Day nv::>n'lirq. 
Q: rt•s been so ••• 
A: Yes, it has been. I'm ccn:::erned about it for a l1Ul'l'll::ler of reasons. I lave that Ol.u:t:t':h am I want to start to see it flourish am blossan ani r don•t :1cmw' Why it isn•t. we have a good minister. I think Hoby's sennans are great. r think Hoby's personality is great. I enjoy his sunday School classes ani I don•t knc:w Why. Of cx:urse, maybe eveeybcxly doesn't see him as I do ani that's the problem, I don't know. No man can be all~to all men. 
Q: No, and he's very much his own persat. 
A: '!his is all well ani good. I a.ppt:eCiate that in anybody and so do you, Bandy, :because at least you know We:re they stard. I hate ntUgWall1pS. 
Q: Yes. we started mainly because of Hoby. 
A: I think he's a delightful d1.aracter and I think Betsy is too. think that next to Hank and me, they are the two JOOSt in lave in this Whole cxn:Jr:egatiat. 
Q: Now that might just be true. You and Hank were married there just a year ago? 
been ca.n.i.n:J up in the Episcopal Church are 'l:l'lin;s like the ordination 
A:  No,  the 4th of October,  1980.  
Q:  well, it'll soon be two years.  
A:  Gee,  I  don't knc1.l 'What else there is to say.  
Q:  Oh.,  I •ve got sare mre questioos.  sane of the questioos that have  

of wanen. '!he lay people are back servin;J with the helping of camm.mion am 'l:l'lin;s like that. HOW' do you feel alx:ut that? 
A: let's put it this way, I'm not an E.R.A.er and I'm nat abssessed with the idea of waoen priests. I think 'Wa1'l.el"1 lay readers are fine. If a wanan wants to persist and is qualifed or has been appr:oved by the pawe:rs that be to offer the chalice of the camm.miat se:r:vice. I will accept that, but so far I am, this is plrely a Sllbject:ive response, if I have a pr:ti:>lem and I need counseling I want to go to a fatherly shoulder. 
Q: So you prefer men. )):) you think it was ClOll1Il¥)1"1 to be brcAJ.9h.t up where the father was the str:l.'ll"g person? Or: were you m:>re close to your father than your UDther? 
A: No, I was nat. 
Q: You were closer to your UDther? 
A: Right. I d.on't krlo!l. I feel the SaJIB way abc:lut WC1'llSll being'or:dai.ned as priests as I do about the mms in the Ranan catholic faith goiri;J into street clothes fran the habits of their ordel::s. I feel they lose sc:met:hi.rq in the transition. r •m a traitor to my sex undoubtedly. I •ve heaJ:d all of the old cliches and I 'Walld be inclined to 1'IDlth them too. OUr IDrd surrc:m'lded himself with twelve men, he had MaJ:.y Magdalen, he Mary and Martha and if he had wanted to have female Apostles they were there. I've heaJ:d all these arguments but as I say it's a subjective t:hin;J. Now if I went into a ch.urch ll1'11a'lowin:Jly, like we visit a ch.urch 'When on vacatiat sanewhere and went to the ch.urch for a ch.urch service, and there was a wanan priest there, I 'Walldn't get up ard walk out. Blt I wouldn't think that I would have the SaJIB spiritual feeling when the se:r.:vioe was over that I have with a male priest. '!here is saoethirg about the man at the altar that makes me feel that there is a true repr:esenta.tive of God a:rrl of Jesus an:ist and a wanan priestess-so I •m sexist. I say it1s purely subjective because that's my feelin;Js. 
Q: well you weren•t there when they put the cannes on the altar, were you? You know Olrist Qrurch had a terrible cantrove.rsy about a.dd:irq the cannes? 
A: 'lbe can:U.es that are up there on the reredos? No, I wasn't aware of that. 
Q: It must have been before your time? 
A: I can't remember there not }:)eirg can:U.es up there. 
Q: I think RevererD Riley may have been there since he was there before Jerry wallace. It was durin;J his tbne that they aaied the can:U.es. OJ you remember that Mrs. Palmer gave the reredos? 
A: No, that was before my tilDe. '!hey were discussin;J at st. celia's last Friday a stained glass win:lc:M which had been where the reredos is nt:M, all of cherubs I think it was, ani ncb:xiy krlc:1.rm where it is arrl I don't remember ever seein;J it. 
Q: When your tapes not on I'll tell you what I heani, because it's just hearsay. 
A: well, I was down there at Olrist Cllurdl. As a kid I was in Troop 7 of the Girl scouts which was at Cllrist Church. 
Q: Oh, there was a Troop 7 Girl scouts too? 
A: Yes, there was Troop 7 Girl scouts as well as Boy scouts. We liSt down in the basement and that was when the auditorium was upstairs. 
Q: It wasn't as st:ron;J as the Boy scout troops? 
A: No, apparently not. It didn't last. 
Q: I didn't realize it had ever been there. And you belonged? 
A: Yes, because a lot of my frien::is who were classmates of mine at stuart School, which was then at 6th an.:i Allen, or rather 6th and vine, went down to Cllrist Church arxl they were in Troop 7 so they asked me to cane down to Troop 7 ani join Troop 7 with them. 'lhis was back in the days when we didn't get bussed back ani forth to school so you could go with your schoolmates after school to scout meetings. '!hat's another whole new subject, the bJsin;J, I wcm't get into that. But I was in Troop 7 at Cllrist Cllurdl. I suppose I was at the CllUrch proper on CX~CaSion, but so help me I can't remember seeirq a glass in the back of the church. 
Q: Yes, tc.Mal:ds the 7th street erxi. It was about the size of the rose winiow which is aver the main door. It was not a little winiow. People thought all these years it was in the basement, but it is not, I've been down there. 
A: Well they said sanet:hirq at st. cecelia's that it was in a crawl space. 
Q: '1he whole basement is a crawl space except for the area where the fumaoe is. '!here is a room down there not much bigger than your livi.rq room here an:i the rest of it is crawl space. 
A: well I hadn't been aware of the exist:encle of the wiD:iow" until last Friday so I can't tell you 1lllCh about that. 
Q: No, no one knows where it is. I've a.skeCl a lot of people and I've dale a lot of lookirg and I do think it's lost to the ctrurc:h., which is a shan'e. 
A: well, the reredos must have been c:onst:ructed before Hauser's time becallSe that rerecics was there when I joined the ctrurc:h.. 
Q: Are you sure of that-when you joined in 1948? 
A: 1948. 
Q: I don't remember when Mrs. Palmer gave that reredos. I alwayshave to look up thi.:rgs like that. DJ:tes don't stay in my mini at all. 
A: In fact I dian't know' until this minute that Mrs. Palmer was the one Who gave it. see, I'm learnirq sane1:l'1irq too. 
Q: Oh, I've leaJ:ned so 1lllCh you can't believe. I'm going to be :ready to write my book in six years. Betty I.einicke said she would like to help too. She said she would edit and I think that would be a pretty good way of being, or addir:g" acx:macy to it. She i.nterviBtlE!d Mrs. SCh.oei.n.in;;r about five years before I did mine and I haven't had a chance to listen. I should just p..tt it on sane night when I'm fixing' supper and listen to it because Mrs. Sc::tloeniri.;J's stories are delightful and I just love to listen to her. You know' she's still in good health really. She's going to make it to 100. 
A: I knaW' she is. She's an amazi.rg person. 
Q: Do you remember when Jerry Wallace was fighti.rg the corruptionbusiness t.hirg in Spri.rgfield, the slot machines, do you :remember those? '!he pinball machines or the punch t.hirgs? 
A: I remember when all of those were in existence but I don't remember Jerry Wallace ever cru.sa.dirq. 
Q: '!hey said too that the people f:ran First Presbyterian Church were very active in gettj.n.;J this stopped. Jerry was one of the leaders. OJ.llan gave me a little book to read and it's got a little short sto:r:y about Jerry and his presentation. 
I.et's see, Bill Jacobs was there for fifteen years. He told me about sane of the rerco:ielir.g that went on. Do you remater any of that? '!hat's when they l:'ElllVJV'ed. the wi.rdcw, was during Bill Jaccb's time. '!hatIS when they moved the organ too. 
A: '!hey got a new organ but, boy, as I say I don't ever remember ever seeing the wi.rdcw in Qlrist Olurch. I don't think I wa.lld have walked al."'O.ll'd-maybe I did. 
Q: I '11 tell you a sto:r:y of how' bad my merrmy is. I would have ~m that Roger's mother had a Queen Anne d.ini.rJ; :roam set when I was in !her bane when I was like twenty-one. It was considerable time later tllat 
I married Rcge:r am the entire family assures m that there was 1'lE!IIfer 
a Queen Anne d.in.ir.g roan set. I didn't kn.ow what Queen Anne f'umiture was. I wt'IUld love to knew where I qat Jtrf stories. I):) you believe that? 
A: SUre•. 
Q: Who are scme of the other people you remem:iber? 
A: '!be p:t'd)lem was that I sat up in that choir loft S\.D'K::Iay after 
SUnday after S\lJ'K::Iay am knew cmJ.y the choir people because when YOJ.Ire involved like that you don't have a chanc:e to fratemize with the other people in the oorgreqation. Mother belor.ged to st. Hilda's am 
the night time guilds but I didn't go to that because they 'Were all older than I. I didn't fit in to the youi'XJ women's guild. because they 
were all young mothers who had guild meetings at night so their husbands could take care of the babies. I didn•t fit in that categoJ::y so I am nat well acquainted with, am well, to this day, I'm nat well acquainted with the wa.nen of Christ Chun::ti. '!herein lies IrfJ' prcblans 
with be.in;J President of the E.c.w. 
Q: You're president this year? 
A: Yes. 
Q: I didn't realize that, Addie. 
A: So I've been strivi:rg so ha:td to get a chainnan for the count:t.y Olpboanl. 
Q: I'11 try am give you sane names after we 'bJm off the tape. Were you eNer in any of the E.c.w. stuff before you retired? 
A: No. 
Q: I do want to ask you al:xut your flyi:rg. 
A: Why? .'!hat hasn't a.nythin_;J to do with Christ a:rurch. 
Q: I k:now". I •m going to pit it on a different tape because it has to do with you am you're a member of Christ Chun::ti. '!hat other lady didn't 'bJm your tapes in am I want a little bit of it for the records office. 
A: well, do you want it natfl 
Q: No, let liE start another tape. 
Eh:i of Side 'l'Wo, Tape One 
Q: Adelaide has been a member since the 1940's am she's had a vel!Y inte:resting am diverse life. One of the t:h.ir¥Js she's been very . active in is flyi:rg. She has been involved in lot's of the things 
that have happened in aviation, especially at it pertains to WOltEil. I'd like to include this tape alJout that. Tell me about it now. 
A: Well, it starts way back when I was a little kid. 'lb.e ai:J:port for bri.rgi.rg in the mail had been out around Bradfomton saoewhere ani LindbeJ:gh had flown in am out of there can:ying the mail. 'Ih.en a new airport was bein:J opened on the southwest section of town on the Chatham Road, called Spri.rgfield Rmicipal Airport, later known as SOUthwest Ai.J:port. As part of the openirq c::erenalles ~had a Ford Tri-'JOOtor out there that they were taking people up for r~des. My maternal granifather was an ergineer on the Wabash Railroad am he asked 11D1:her to drive him and me out to the airport. He had seen the iron horse ccme in and he wanted to fl¥ in one of these airplanes. So when we got out there he went to the ticket counter and bought two tickets an:i my 11D1:her flat-footedly refused to go UJ? in the airplaneride and I guess I danced up and down as children w~ll do ard said, "I'll go, I'll go, I'll go," arxi he took me. 'Iha.t was my first airplane ride and it was love at first flight. (laughter) Frean there on I knew that when I grew up I was goirq to fly an airplane. 
Q: How old were you then? 
A: Oh dear, I don't know. I must have been eleven maybe, ten or eleven, sanewhere around there. so when I became eighteen years of age, having pushed and prodded all alOIJ3' am gotten l'lCMhere with myfolks, I signed up and I learned to fly. 
Q: You gave yoorself flyirg lessons? 
A: No, I paid for them. I gave myself flyin;J lessons and I leazned to fly. I was the first licensed wanan pilot in downstate Illinois. I went on to get not only a pilot license but a canmercial license. 'Ih.en the war came alorg. I had secured ground instructor ratirgs just because it was a chal.len:;e and sanethi.rg to do and then the war came alorg and they established one of the great wash machine courses out at southwest Airport. By that I mean that when war broke out the air trainin:J facilities were not sufficient to train pilots as fast as we needed them in order to win the war. '!hey let contracts for prilnal:ytrain.in:J flight schools throughout the country ard southwest Airport, or Sprin;;rfield !t.micipal Ail:port. Sprin;;rfield Aviation CcEpany was the fixed base cprator for the ai.J:port am they got a contract. I was t:ea.chi.rg school at that time ani SChool District 186 got the contract for the ground school and the logical choice was me because I was the a'll.y one trained to do it. so I was transferred fran my t:eachir:g position at Iles School out to the airport. 
Q: 'Iha.t1s how you made the transition fn:an teachirg? 
A: Yes, and I taught Al:my and Navy cadets. When llDre and more gals came alorq gett:1n:J their pilots license I oxganized the Central Illinois Olapter of the 99 • s which is an inteJ:natia'lal. m:ganization of women pilots. It's name, the 99's, because Amelia Earllart. in 1929: sent out invitations to the women pilot• s existin;;r in those days tq fonn an organization of women pilots to match the QB • s, or the QUi4t Birdmen, the male contin]ent, arrl there were 99 charter members of ! this group she ox:ganized. so they decided to call themselves the 99 's. I kept If¥ license up. I don't fly anynDre l:leca.use I sold 1Tf{ ail:plane. One of us had to go. I couldn't support both of us any le>n;le:t:' and to rent a plane these da:¥5 costs entirely too much m:>ney. so I kept my physical and If¥ oertif1cate up but I don't use it ~· '!hat•s about it. 
Q: Now you knc::w that's not it because you told me about sane of the people you trained out tllere. 
A: Cb, well. You mean like Pete Mack that flew aroun:i the world? 
Q: Yes. 
A: Yes, I had hill\ as sbldent out there, taught hill\ navigation. I taught several guys that went on into the service am did alright. I taught several guys that went on into the service ani didn't come back. I knerl a lot of fellows out there. Dlrirg the fair before the war broke out there used to be sky writers arxi, oh, they pllled barmers, advertising ~aver the fairgroln'¥is ard Mike Hlrphy was worJdn;J for Marathon Oil Calpmy and he brought in an aeJ:Obatic team. He was the 'WOrld aerd:latic chanpion ard he also had the Ford Tri""'IO'tor that had the neon signs lmder the wing that flew over the fairgrourrls at night. It said "Marathon," and that would go out and it 'WOUld say"gas" under this wing, "oil" urx:ler this wirq. You should be interested in that because your husba.ni runs a Marathon station. They came out fran Fin:Uay, Ohio and during the daytime they would do their aerobatics with the smoke, you knc:M, ani at night Mike would fly the Ford plane aver the fairgrourrls. so since my birthday is the 14th of August, one time for a birthday present he took me up with him and let me fly the Ford Tri-notor, which was like flyirg a boxcar. '!hey were low speed ani they were safe ail:planes, but when you tried to control them you had to make up your mini a lon:J tiJne ahead of where you wanted to turn if you wanted to 'bJm because it took that lorq to get the controls to operate and takeover. You knc:M, if you were going to make a circle arourxl the fairgrourrls you had to start ~the circle before you got to the fa.irgourr:is. other:wise, by the time you made the "bJm you'd be on the north side of the fairgrourrls h.eadirJ:J back. (laughter) '!hat was q.ti.te an experience. 
I flew the Powder PUff Del:by fran Clevelard to New York City ard won the trcphy as the best navigator in the the Derby. crew of that one was Helen Rogers, no, Helen Grenike fran the Rogers Hotel in BlOCJDi.rgton who was one of our centa1 Illinois 99's. I flew an Intemational Air Race in 1955 with Bal:b Jebison fran Paris, Illinois. '!hat flight was fran washin;Jton D. c. to Havana, OJba which was the days before castro. we won fifth place in that. 
Q: Now were you flying or navigating in that? 
A: Navigating. o:>-pilot, but I was naviga:tirg. 
Q: Did you help get the Powder Puff De:t:by stuff organized? 
A: No, I had nothing to do with that. 'lhe Eastem Qmpters of the 99 1s got that started. I was in Civil Air Patrol durin;J the war aJ1d was Wing Trainin;J Officer for the Illinois Win;J and got out with tlle rank of captain. I had a Civil Air Patrol cadet encanpnent at scott Field at Belleville in the summer of 1945 and we were there on V-J day, which was my birthday. 
Q: Your birthday creates quite a lot of excitement doesn't it? 
A: Yes, doesn't it. '!hat was quite an experience because evecybc:dy on the base went stark-crazy and I had twenty teenage girls that I had to protect. It was fun.. It was an experience. 
Q: At this e:ncanpnent were you flyin.J? were you teachirr;J them flyirg? 
A: No, we were ~them in grouni school and 1:.eac::hin; them militaJ:y courtesy and dJ sciJ?line and all that good stuff. '!hen they 'WOUld have the actual practice on an actual base. But see, in that day ani age, that era, it was not the AnfW Air Force, it was the Anny Air CO:tps. It was not the united states Air Force, it was the A:nny Air CO:tps. It was not a separate 1:hinj. 'Ihe air wirg of the militaJ:y was not a separate entity durirg world war II. A lot of people fot:getthat. 
Q: SO it was part of the AnfW? 
A: Part of the ~, yes. But rDil they have the Air Force and the Air Force Academy, JUSt as the AnfW does. But in those days all the rules and regulations were the Al:my rules and regulations so it was m:>St interestin:J. I think I flew at the optimum era really. I regret that I never got to meet Amelia Erhart. She was always my idol. But she disappeared just as I was leamirg to fly. I was still going to school at the u of I and canin:J heme on weekerrls when she disappeared the summer of 1937, ani that was before I had gotten my wings. 
Q: Do you have any ideas yourself ab:Jut what happened to her? 
A: Not really, there are all kini of hypothesis. sane make a little bit of sense, sane don't make any sense at all. I really don't knew". 
Q: I ~maybe you krlc:w like bein;J in the flyirg groups at the time you might have had sane privileged infomation. 
A: No, see I was a novice in those tines and by the time I got into the 991s and got to meet sane of these other gals that had known her, the guessirg was all CNer. 'Ihe nv:::m::nin:J was still going on, but the guessirg was all CNer. 
Q: I remeniJer readin;J books ani stuff in school about her. She was, well I dan•t think she • d had her accident or had been lost when I first started readin;J about her. 
A: I guess she was quite a gal. She was a zontan too. see I belOIXJ to the Zonta Club which is a classified club of business and exea¢ive wanen, professional wanen, you krlc:w. She belon;red to the zonta Club out east. SO the 99's give Amelia Erhart scholarships to further . flyin;J education and the zontans give Amelia Erhart scholarships~ further college education for gals to get their post graduate ~· 
Golly, sane of them, well all of th.eln w:re involved in th.i.n;s that I can't pronounce half of the words. You know all these scientific things an:i a.e:rospace an:i all that good stuff. I guess it was a good.t:h.i.rr:J I quit when I did because I'm too 1lllC:h of a d.ulmt¥ for flyirq now with all that goin;J. Although, I liiiCUld love to go up an the shuttle. 
Q: Wouldn't ycu.? Oh you an:i I'll qo tcgether. 
A: I t.Qlld love to see this earth fran 25,000 miles up. Q1e of the joys of flyin:] to me was to go out after work an:i get in mt little a.b::plane an:i take off. Yru could do this in those days which is.my I say I flew at an opt±num time in history because you clidn't have to file a flight plan, you didn•t have to be goirq fran here to there and caning from there back to here and. the whole world~about it. You could flO up an:i fly al'.'OIJl'rl arxi look the situation aver an:i look at Geld's handiwork arxi r;ealize that there was a SUpreme Beirq and. that all the troubles an:i the tribulations arxi all the minor i.:rritatiors you had suffered clurirq the day were just that, minor irritations, an:i there was scmat:b.irq bigger an:i st:ronger ard DK>re 'Wtnierful that was k:eepirq this whole world together. You'd cx::me back with a whole different attitude. 
Q: Can I ask. what a plane "\<iiOUld cost you? 
A: well, my first airplane was a 39 ~CUbam new it cost $3,000. My secor.rl ard last ai:r.plane was a Taylorcraft, 65 horsepower cal'I.Q'aft which I owned in partnership with one of the fellows out at the airport. New it hac1 sold for between four am five thol.lsanl. NCM you can't get one for $25,ooo. 
Q: You can't buy a car hardly for less than ten. 
A: 'lhat's right. When I lea.med to fly, instruction was $7.50 an hour, that was $5. oo an hour for rental of the plane and $2.50 an hour for the instructor. Nar.r the :cent of s:i:m.ilar ail:planes costs a minimum of $25. 00 an hour ani your flyirq instructor costs a :mi.nimu:m of $20.00. ~uponthe equipoent in the aizplane with what you are tald.rg inst:ructian an, if you are goin;J on for instruments or sc:met.l::Un;J like that it's even D'Dre. 
Q: Well my son is teyirq to tell me his friend1s father C1Nl'lS a plane. He1s supposedly just a construction worker. I keep sayin;J there is no way just a oonstruction worker can own a plane. 
A: Well there all ldn:.'ls of airplane clubs. He could say he is an CMJ'l8.'t" of a a.b::plane because he's in one of those clubs that owns one. Because there are a lot, a lot, there are several .clubs out there at capitol Ail:port an:i the clubs are of a size that they own two or three airplanes am they all call themselves ai:r.plane owners. 
Q: Have you ever belorged to one of those ldn:i of clubs? 
A: No, never. 
Q: Do you know what the meml::lership would c:ost in one of them? 
A: I have no idea, the only t:h..in;J that I 'WOUld be sure of would be that when the weather was flyable all the club members wcul.d want the airplane at the same time. 
Q: Now you might have an advantage that you don't have to work fUll time. 
A: Yes, but if you were a ll!e!Jiber of a flyirq club ani you wanted to take a trip this weekeni well maybe several of the other members of the flying club want to take a trip this weeken:i. SO like the weekerd that is c:anin;J up now, the Mertv:>rial weekeni. I can remember out at Southwest Allport when Menm'ial ~Y weekerxi came alon;J, ani it wasn•t always on a weekerd because in those days we didn't bounce the holidays arourrl to give people ItDre days to kill "t:henselves in, Mexoorial ~Y was "a" day, an:i lots of people would get in their ail:planes ani fly over to Iniianapolis. Where' s there nt:M a housi.rgdevelcpnent out there west of Iniianapolis was open field then so they could land their ail:planes practically right next to the Speedway. 'lhey'd fly CNer there, watch the races and fly home. 
Q: Did your JOOther fly with you? 
A: Yes, but~ father wouldn't. No, he said if the lord had intended him to fly he 'WOUld have given hilll win;Js ani he wouldn't go. 
Q: Did your father die quite awhile before your :mother? 
A: No, m:rt:her died first. Mother died in 1974 an:i Daddy died in 1976. 
Q: Ani you ard Hank were married in 1980? HeM did you get into the Powder Puff Detby, how did you get in the 99 1s? Did they cane here or did you write and ask them? 
A: '!here was a cha~ in Northem Illinois and they were all in what was then the Illino1B Olapter of the 99's. In fly:irg fran airport to ail:port you ran into other people. One of the gals I ran into up in Chlcago, Alice DeWitt, she and her husbard ran Ashbome Ai.Iport which was on Ashborne Avenue south of what is now Midway. I flew up there one day, I think I was qoin:J to meet one of the CAA inspectors up there and Alice asked ne if I would like to belon;J to the 99 1s and I said yes I would. So she sul:anitted my name an:i I was accepted and I went up to <lti.caqo and was inititated. So I was a member of the Illinois Qlapter until there were enough gals downstate that we could fonn a chapter down here. since I was the 99 down here I got them into the 99 and -we fonned our am chapter. 
Q: '!hat would have been a very excitin:J tUne. 
A: It was, it was a t:ilne when, well of oourse t:hi.nJs are still growi.n;J in days of aeronautical, of c::xJUJ:Se it's the space age now. But it is pretty irrt:erestinJ to watch the evolution of aircrafts. remember when I was learni.n;J to fly and they were goin:J to have an airshow down at st. Iouis, Iambert Field, and they were goinJ to haVe the new oc 3 on exhibit down there. 'Ihe oc 3 "was so big that a gasoline truck could nm unier it1s nose." A bunch of us flew dOWJl to 
I.a:mbert. field to see this new DlJ1'lSt:er a..izp1ane. NC'1tt you ccW.d put the 
DC 3 in one of the win:J channels of one of these 747 's, I do believe. 

(l.a\¥1lter) 
Q: What is a win;J channel? 
A: Where the pods of the jet en:Jines are. NC'1tt that's an exagge:ration, you oouldn't fit one in there but • 
teach then durin;;r the war? Did you teach the entire balance of it? 
Q:  Okay.  
A:  sort of the differenc:e between a flea and a bumble bee.  
Q:  You're right, the "Flight of the Bl.1mble Bee."  How' lonq did you  

A: Yes. 
Q: How' many years was that? 
A: I started t.each.in;J flight school in 1942 and finished up in 1945 on the contract basis and then I continued to teach groun:1 school at night out at SOU:thwest l:leca.use a lot of the f!I'!'!S cane back fran the service and had been in the infa.ntry and artillm:y where there were small planes in use and had gotten the buq. '!hey used sane of their GI money and leamed. to fly and get their licenses. So I taught at night out there. So I guess I taught, I taught up until about 1950 or thereabouts I guess. 
Q: Now that's the time you joined Christ Church? 
A: Yes, I was still teac'h.in:J When I joined Christ Orurch. 
Q: You don't fly at all 'flf.:N? 
A: caumercially, but not personally. 
Q: Oh you do fly for other people? 
A: No, no, I mean I ride a car.unercial airplane but I don't pilotmyself.• 
Q: Oh, I 1:hought that you meant that you did fly oaame:rcially. 
A: No, can't afford it. If you have a b.lsi.ness, if you contracted • 
Q: Yes, you could write it off. 
A: Yes, write it off as a business expense, this is great. But when you have to pay it out of your awn hip pocket it gets to be a stickywicket. 
Q: How' lonq did you own planes? 
27 
A: I guess I sold the T-craft arcurn 1950 or 1951, somewhere along in there. 
Q: An:i when did you bly YCJJr first plane? I think you told me but I 
don•t remember. 

A: Oh, when did I bly my first plane? Al:amd 1940. 
Q: It seems you really had ten of the best years of flyirq when it was really an amateur sport. 
A: Yes, when you could go up an::i if you wanted to go out an::i do same fancy flyirq you could, just clear the air space visually ani go on with what you were doirq, loops ani spins ani falls an:i lazy eight's an:i pylon eight's. 
Q: You never were in an airshow? 
A: Not as such. we used to, when the c.A.P. was on, we used to have sort of l:x:lmb-droR>irq contests an:i that sort of thing, if you could call that an airshow. But no, not a real, honest to goodness airshow. 
Q: Like wirq walking or a:ey of that? 
A: No. 
Q: Do you remember a:ey of the people who did that? 
A: I remember when the en:iurance flight was on out at the airport because I used to 'WOrk out at the airport in the summert:ilne when I was flyirq. Before I started teachirq I worked out there in the office at the airport so I was there when the small plane en:iurance flight went on, the Moody Brothers. '!hat would be sc:met:hing you wouldn•t even remember. 
Q: No, what are the Moody Brothers? 
A: 'lhey were 'bNo brothers that went up in a little Taylorcra.ft and stayed aloft for Ul'lpty-umpt days an:i hours and :mirnrt:es to set a world en:iurance record. '!heir base was the airport. 
Q: Now was that SOUthwest airport? How did they stay up that long? 
A: 'Well, they'd cane in low ani drop a bucket an:i a truck would run alon.l urx:Jerneath them an:i put food in the bucket ani they'd haul it up or they'd drop a rope ani the guy on the truck would fasten it on to it ani they'd fasten gas cans onto it an:i they'd fill the tanks up in 
the air ani all that sort of thirq. 
Q: It was haiJ:y? 
A: Yes. I used to think, "I love to fly, but your crazy." 
Q: Oh yes, that would scare me to death. Did you ever qo to any of the airshows where they have win:J walkers ani stuff? 
A: Cb yes, we used to go over Clevelarxi to the National Ai.rshow. 'lhe:re used to be one etery year on I.al:x>r Day We.ekerxi, but that's goneby the boal::d. '!bey have ai.:rshows out west new when they have t::h.em. 
Q: out west ~? 
A: A:ralr'ld TUcson and out in that area. 
Q: we don•t have any kind of airshows here nt::M? 
A: Not to lfr:l Jm.c.wleCI.ge, except the weekend warriors do sanethinq once in awhile. 
Q: Oh, the We.ekerxi warriors? 
A: You ·Jm.c.w who they are don•t you? 
Q: Yes, National Guard, Jrt:1 son is goinq to be one. 
A: Yes, the l83:r:d Tactical. 
Q: Who were sane of the other women Who flew with you? 
A: Elo you Jm.c.w Russell Gillock at our dmrch? 
Q: Yes. 
A: His sister, F.sther, got a pilot's certificate. 'lhe:re was a teacher over at Feitshan High School by the name of Helen Piefe:r. 'lhere was a gal by the name of Helen Able arxi incidentally, Helen :rade it into the W.A.S.P. I didn't, but she did. WCioen's Air service Pilot transported Arrrry planes fran base to base durinq the war. '!hen there was a gal by the name of Florence o•Cca1nOr. Cliff Hathaway'sfirst wife, I don't mean Cliff an'1 Shirley, I mean ••• 
Q: It would be Cliff senior ncw, but Cliff the II. 
A: Yes. His first wife was Margie styles arxi she leamed to fly out at the airport but she didn't ever get her license. IJhat's al:.xJut all 
from Sprinqfield. I :believe, all I can remember anyway. A lot of galswould cane out. 
Q: JUst cane to see if they could? 
A: Yes. 
Q: Haw JDal'lY hours are required for q.t'Olll"Xi school? 
A: It wasn't a question of hours required for gn1JIXi school it was just a question of lea.rnin;J the material so you could pass the written exa.minatic:n. 
Q: Haw lc.n;J did lDOSt pec:ple have to ccme? 
A: Gosh, I can't answer that. 'lhat's been so far back I can't :reaPJ.y ocunt up h.c::w many hours it would have taken. I taught each course I 
! 
separately at the night grc::JUrJi school. Na.r at the wasl1iig machine 
course, you know, you taught one right after the other ani even taughtmathematics ani physics. As one of of my sbJdents said one day,"Started out teachi.rq arithmetic, I drcWed my pencil an:i when I foun:.'l it an:i came up off the floor you 'tAlere teaching college algebra."
(laughter) But I was certificated to teach navigation, includingradio an:i celestial, neteorology, ail:plane construction, airplaneengines, an:i civil air regulation. I taught all of those because all of those -were required by Civil Air Regulation. sane took lorqer than others, it would deperd on heM fast they soaked up the material. Now as far as they Anny ani Navy cadets were concerned, they had a limited amamt of tim ani if they didn1t get it in that len:fth of 
tilne-that1s why it was called the wash:in;J machine course. 
Q: You washed them out? 
A: '1he flight :instructors could wash them out of flight tra:inirg am I cc:W.d wash them out of grcJlll'D school. 
Q: Did you wash a lot of them out? 
A: well, I didn't, sane of the flight instructors washed them out pretty fast, although our mortality rate of washouts wasn•t too bad. Sane of them they just wouldn1t or couldn•t, I was never able to decide which, hack it. sane of them would freeze the minute they gottheir l'larrls on the controls of the ail:plane. Well that's no good. 
Q: COUldn't setXi them out. Ianoe took groun:i school. Do you knc:lw they offer that in high school now. · I don't think he did well in one semester to really get his license but he really enjoyed. Do you know 
Dave Al:tlott, he1s the instructor at the high school? He's in his middle 30's. 
A: I've lost all contact. You know, when you like to do sametlti.nglike that ani you can't do it anym:n:e, can't afford to do it anyllDre,then maybe it's an ostrich attitude, but you stay as far away frcan. possible so you don•t get the yens. 
Q: Yes, yes, I think that's really true. I think most pec:ple do. So you got married ani cane to Christ Church regularly? You said you had known Hank since you were? 
A: In high school, seniors in high school. He went to Riverton HighSchool when there was only three years there. so he came into Sprin;;Jfiel.d to get his fourth year ani started nnm:irq :t'OUI'rl with my
cousin, Tan Brownell, ani through Tan Brownell we met ani dated off ani on ani back and forth then split up ani he got married ani went off to war an::l came back, got divorced, came back to me, then remarried his wife ani took off again ani always kept in touch. 
I'm afraid I haven't been a whole lot of help to you. 
Q: Oh yes you have, you remember some of the other pec:ple that ,.
don't. I'm trying to think of same of the older people I was go to ask you if you remembered. but some of them, I'm not sure whether 
I 
were there since you are fran the 50's forward. Mrs. callannan, she 
started the soup prcgJ:am under Jercy Wallace ani that's before you. 

A: NCM, her daughter lorraine was in choir, lorraine Pepin. She was Lorraine Clark, Mrs callannan's dau;;jhter. 
Q: Is she still in the choir? 
A: No. 
Q: She's got a daughter but I can't remember. 
A: Mrs. Callarman has? 
Q: It's a g:ranjdaughter. But she's got daughters that aren't very
old I don't think. 

A: well now maybe I'm confused. Maybe Lorraine Clark isn't her daughter, but I always thought she was. 
Q: Yes, she's got a daughter Lorraine ani a daughter Doris ani I think I.ouise ani she has a son, Buddy, I don't know his name and a lot of people called lWn Buddy. Let me ask you this. What are same of the highlights, same of the special things you remember fran the church? 
A: What do you mean, personal things? 
Q: 'Ihinqs that starxi out in yollr min:i whether they seemed moment.ow31 special days1 special tiJnesI sarae1:hirg you enjoyed most about the church. 
A: I think the thing that really got me to join the church was the frierxlliness of the people there. I enjoyed bein:J in the choir. I would c:x:nsider John Hauser a highlight. on Chrisbnas Eve services were highlights. Ed Grimes was in the choir too, by the way. An:l, of course, I think the highlight of highlights was my weddin;;J. Another highlight was when Hank was confirmed. 
Q: When was he oonfinned? I must not have been at that service. 
A: It was after we were married. It was December 2oth, 1980. 
Q: '!hat was just shortly after you were married? 
A: Yes, we were married in October and he was oonfinned in December. I went to the oonfinnation classes with him. 
Q: 'Ihat•s nice. Iance ani I were c::onfinned at the same time also. Well I have enjoyed it ani it's been very i.nterestin;J. You've lived an interesting life. 
A: I hope you've leamed something. I don't know that I have given you very nuch. 
31 
Q: well, like I said, your mem:Jries are just a little bit different than eve:rybody else's am when I pit them all together I really have a history because history is the ~lewho make it. '!he people are what creates sane1:h:i.n3' like attist arurch am so you have to do their ~because the history of a c::h.urdl are the people ani I've dale interv1ews with sane won:ierful.ly in1:erestirq people. 
A: well people like Betty I.einicke are so far ll'Ore knowledgeable because they've been there their whole lifetiJne. 
Q: Yes, I have three hours of Betty l:ut I really do aJ;PreCiate because your point of view is really different fran hers ani that's what I need. I need the whole prospective of it. Because it wouldn't be any fun to do if I only did one side of it. I've really enjoyed it because it's like you said, "'lhey've never lost their frienlliness." It's a terrific little dhurdh. 
End of Side one, Tape 'lWO               
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Rentschler, Adelaide O'Brien - Interview and Memoir

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