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University of Illinois at Springfield Norris L Brookens Library Archives/Special Collections Edward P. Saltiel Memoir SA37. Saltiel, Edward P. (1897-1990) Interview and memoir 17 tapes, 860 mins., 175 pp., plus index ILLINOIS GENERAL ASSEMBLY ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM Saltiel, Republican member of the Illinois House of Representatives 1935-45 and the Illinois Senate 1947-55, discusses his years in the General Assembly: legislation involving the Chicago Crime Commission, unemployment compensation, public utilities and railroads, and health, education, and judiciary legislation. Also discusses his years before the legislature: law school, law practice, running for a judicial position on the Socialist ticket, and politics and life in Chicago. He also recalls his more recent work with judicial reform and the United Nations Commission on Migration. Interview by Horace Q. Waggoner, 1982 OPEN See collateral file: interviewer's notes and photocopies of photographs. Archives/Special Collections LIB 144 University of Illinois at Springfield One University Plaza, MS BRK 140 Springfield IL 62703-5407 © 1982, University of Illinois Board of Trustees Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield ILLINOIS GENERAL ASSEMBLY ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM PREVIOUS TITLES IN SERIES Martin B. Lohmann Memoir, 1 Vol. (1980) Bernice T. VanDer Vries Memoir, 3 Vols. (1980) Walter J. Reum Memoir, 2 Vols. (1980) Thomas A. McGloon Memoir, 2 Vols. (1981) John W. Fribley Memoir, 2 Vols. (1981) Charles W. Clabaugh Memoir, 2 Vols. (1982) Cecil A. Partee Memoir, 2 Vols. (1982) Elbert S. Smith Memoir, 2 Vols. (1982) Frances L. Dawson Memoir, 2 Vols. (1982) Robert W. McCarthy Memoir, 2 Vols. (1983) John C. Parkhurst Memoir, 2 Vols. (1984) Corneal A. Davis Memoir, 2 Vols. (1984) Cumulative Index, 1980-1984 .t.l Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield EDWARD P. SALTIEL ILLINOIS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 1935-1945 ILLINOIS SENATE, 1947-1955 Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield • Preface This oral history of Edward P. Saltiel's service in the Illinois General Assembly is a product of the Illinois Legislative Research Unit's General Assembly Oral History Program. The oral history technique adds a distinctive new dimension to the unit's statutory responsibility for performing research and collecting information concerning the government of the state. Edward P. Saltiel was born in Chicago, Illinois, January 8, 1897. At an early age, he moved with his family to Wisconsin where his father, an ardent Socialist, was assigned to improve the lot of Socialist newspapers, first in Sheboygan and then in Milwaukee. In his reminiscenses of this period of his life, he recalls the association of his father with Socialist leader Eugene Debs. After some four years in Wisconsin, the family returned to Chicago where Mr. Saltiel completed his education. While attending the John Marshall School of Law, he worked as a stagehand in the Chicago Loop. His recounting of his experiences during this work are most interesting as are his descriptions of life in Chicago during the first quarter of this century. Upon graduation from law school in 1918 he launched upon his lifetime practice of law in Chicago. In 1922, he married Lillian Wolf. Mr. Saltiel's only major involvement in politics prior to the 1930's was an unsuccessful bid for judgeship on the Socialist ticket in 1921. Ten years later, in 1931, he became a Republican precinct captain in support of William Thompson's unsuccessful try to regain the Chicago mayorship. Finding an interest in political office, he ran for the state house of representatives in 1932 only to once again fail to find success. Undeterred, he tried again in 1934 and won, retaining the seat until 1944 when he ran unsuccessfully for the state senate. Two years later, with the interim filled with support of the Illinois-Michigan Canal Commission as part of his ongoing law practice, another try for the senate seat proved successful and he served there until 1954. Mr. Saltiel's major legislative interests were in the fields of health, education and judiciary. A major achievement was the introduction of laws requiring premarital physical examinations. In education, he was particularly concerned with laws pertaining to the operation of schools. His activities in support of judicial reform continued after he left the legislature. Readers of this oral history should bear in mind that it is a transcript of the spoken word. Its informal conversational style represents a deliberate attempt to encourage candor and to tap the narrator's memory. However persons interested in listening to the hwes should understand that editorial considerations produced a text that differs somewhat from the original recordings. Both the recordings and this transcript should be regarded as a v Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield primary historical source as no effort was made to correct or challenge the narrator. Neither the Illinois Legislative Research Unit nor Sangamon State University is responsible for the factual accuracy of the memoir, nor for the views expressed therein; these are for the reader to judge. The tape recorded interviews were conducted by Horace Waggoner during the spring of 1982. Mr. Waggoner was born in 1924 in Waggoner, a small farm-service community in central Illinois. At age 18, he enlisted for military service in World War II and, as a U. S. Air Force commissioned officer, continued to serve until 1973. Upon leaving service, he resumed his formal education, achieving a masters degree in history at Sangamon State University in 1975. His association with the Sangamon State University Oral History Office dates from 1976. Betty Lewis and Pat Grider transcribed the tapes. After the transcriptions were reviewed by Mr. Saltiel and edited by Horace Waggoner, Julie Allen prepared the typescript. Florence Hardin compiled the index. The Chicago Tribune provided valuable assistance in the research effort. This oral history may be read, quoted and cited freely. It may not be reproduced in whole or in part by any means, electronic or mechanical, without written permission from the Illinois Legislative Research Unit, Room 107, Stratton Building, Springfield, Illinois, 62706. vi ... Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield ... Table of Contents Preface .................................................................................................................................................. v The Years Before ................................................................................................................................ 1 Family background - Wisconsin interlude - Grade school - High school - Semi-pro baseball - John Marshall School of Law - Stagehand work - Courtship and marriage - Knights of Pythias - Law practice - Life in Chicago- Socialist candidate - Chicago politics (1920's-1930's) The General Assembly Years ........................................................................................................... 50 Campaigning- Election to house- Getting started- Pre-marriage exami- .. nation bill - Broyle's bills - Lobbyists - Relief legislation - Sales tax - Unemployment compensation - Legislative Council - Legislative Reference Bureau - Appropriations - Budgetary Commission - Conservation legislation -Judicial reform - Gateway amendment- Revenue legislation - Education legislation - Election to senate - Chicago Crime Commission bills - Illinois-Michigan Canal Commission Transportation legislation - Real estate legislation - Public Utilities and Railroads Committee - Civil Service Advisory Committee - Fair Employment Practices Commission - City charter bill - Hay fever bill - Reapportionment - Leaving the legislature The Years After .................................................................................................................................. 158 Judicial reform - United Nations Commission on migration between nations - Guidance for person considering going to legislature Index...................................................................................................................................................... 170 Illustrations following page 83. Vll Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield Edward P. Sal tiel SESSION 1, TAPE 1, SIDE 1 Q: When were you born? A: January 8, 1897. Q: And where were you born? A: Chicago, Illinois. Q: What part of Chicago? A: On the north side. To be accurate, Orchard and North Avenue. Q: What was your father's name? A: Robert. Q: Where had the Saltiel's come from? How long had they been in Chicago? A: Oh about a hundred years. They originally are of Spanish-Portugal origin. But w.-..en the Jews were driven out of Spain, some - what? five hundred years ago or so, they ~all went into different directions and my father's family wound up in Holland. And entrusted to the Holland government all of their assets, which I understand was substantial, but they never were able to recoup them. Q: I'll be darned. A: Then my father's parents moved to England. And they became English citizens. My father was actually born in two places. His father was amateur chess champion of Europe and he was on a tour with his pregnant wife, and they miscalculated, and the child was about to be born in Barcelona, Spain, when they had expected it wouldn't arrive until they got back to England. Spain had compulsory military service and they were worried t~at perhaps they wouldn't allow a male child, if it was a male child, to leave the country becapse he'd be a Spanish citizen. Whether that was good thinking or not I don't know, but at ~ny rate they had enough influence to have the English embassy take over the hotel bedroom, ut the English flag up, make that bedroom part of the British embassy, or Bri ish consulate. And so when my father was born he was born on English soil althoug in Barcelona, Spain. Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 2 So when he came over here - see he was born in 1865, I guess he got here about 1880. I think he was about fifteen years old when he got here. He swore off allegiance to the King of England at that time with no mention of his physical birth in Spain. So, that's about the most interesting chapter of my family that I can give you. (chuckles) Q: What part of England did they live? A: All I ever remember was they mentioned Middlesex County. I don't know where that is, I think it's somewhere outside of London. Q: Did you know your grandfather by any chance? A: No I didn't know either of my grandfathers. My mother's father never got here. My father's father died here in Chicago before I was born. My mother's mother died before I was born, she's buried here. And my father's mother is also buried in Chicago. I knew her. So out of the four grandparents, I met one. Q: Do you remember much about your Grandmother Sal tiel? A: I only remember one thing, that she was a very stately lady, very dignified. Very prim and proper. But most importantly she always carried what we would today call a shopping bag into which we kids would dive for the goodies she brought us. So that's my principle recollection. (laughter) Q: Did she live with your family? A: She lived with my father's brother who was a lawyer here in Chicago. Q: How many brothers and sisters did your father have? A: My father had one brother. Q: What was his name? A: Leopold Saltiel. Q: And he was a lawyer . . . A: He was a lawyer here in Chicago. Q: Had he received his education in the United States? A: He received his . . . what was equivalent to high school in Vienna. The family went eventually from London to Vienna, where my father got his early education also. But then he came here and finished his education here. I'm talking now about my uncle. Q: Do you know what school he went to here? A: Lake Forest . . . was the name of the law school. I'm not sure if it's connected with Lake Forest College or not. Q: What kind of law was he involved with? Do you recall? A: General, general practice. In his days there were no real specialists. In fact in my day either, until now. So he handled everything. I don't think he did much in the criminal field. ... Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 3 Q: Did your father say much about the old country, either England or Vienna, in your talking with him? A: No he just talked mainly about what the German people always liked to refer to as "gemietlichkeit," if you know what that means. I guess the best way to define it would be enjoying life. Meeting people and enjoying them and participating in music and arts and so forth. Q: Did he ever indicate he might like to go back to Vienna? A: Oh no. No. He was very happy here. But he was a rabid Socialist and one of the organizers of the Nationalist Socialist party. Q: Oh is that right. A: Yes. Very close friend of Eugene V. Debs of whom you've probably heard. Q: Yes. Did you discuss that with him, as to how he became Socialist inclined? A: Well I never discussed it with him. I just recognized the fact that he was interested in the working people and the poor people who, in his opinion, were being ground underfoot by the profit motive of the capitalistic system. And it was his idea that under socialism everybody would be given the rights that he felt a human being was entitled to. Completely altruistic and somewhat theoretical but motivated by the best of spirit. Q: Was he in Socialist organizations here in the Chicago area? A: Well he belonged to the Socialist party here. He edited the German newspaper that was published by the Socialist party. At one time when we were in Wisconsin ... we moved first to Sheboygan, Wisconsin, and there he was editor of the Socialist paper there. Then we moved to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, where he edited another paper. Socialist party at ~hat time had newspapers in various parts of the country. And whenever one of them'd start bogging down he was the troubleshooter. They'd send him there to try to build the paper up. So ... and he wound up running for lieutenant governor of Wisconsin on the Socialist ticket. Q: Oh. Well. About what year was that? Do you recall? A: Oh, 1902, 1903, somewhere in there. Q: You weren't very old at that time then? A: I think I was about five years old. Q: Do you recall anything about that? A: I remember a lot - oh I could tell incidents - the lore of some of the things - but the one that always stuck in my memory was Bob La Follette was running for governor on the Republican ticket and he met my father at a railroad station. And he said to him, "You know, truth be known, I'm a Socialist at heart myself." And my father said, "Do you want a party application? I'd be glad to give it to you." (laughter) Q: I don't suppose that was followed through on though? A: No. They both got a laugh out of it. Q: .Where did your father go to school here in the United States? cation? I' I Did he continue his tdu- Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 4 A: No he did not. He was self-educated and believe it or not he wound up speaking and writing and reading six languages. Q: Six languages, my goodness. A: He was an extremely well-read man. In my opinion far better educated than those who sleep through college, because he got his education because he wanted it. He was a very brilliant man but he couldn't make a living. He was out of work more than he was in work. (chuckles) Q: What occupation other than the newspaper was he ... A: Principally in the newspaper field. At one time when we were in Wisconsin he was an organizer for the brewers' union. But that was I think for a short period. But his principal work was in the newspaper field but - his last job was with the Chicago Abend Post here, which of course is a !!apitalistic newspaper but ... he quit there because they wanted him to write editorials that went against his beliefs and he wouldn't write them. Q: I'll be darned. A: So I don't know whether he quit or it was by mutual consent. (laughter) Q: How about your mother. What was her name? A: My mother's maiden name was Arnstein. She was born in what is now Czechoslovakia. It was then part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Q: When did she come to the United States? A: Well she must have come around the same time my father did because they got married . . . I think they married in 1887, or somewhere in there. Somewhere I have a wedding invitation. I noticed that in some of these you have pictures and maybe that would be an interesting reproduction. Q: Yes sir. What was her given name? A: Bertha. \ Q: Bertha. Do you recall her talking much about the Austro-Hungarian Empire? A: No. No, they - her parents evidently had a little general store in a city some thirty miles out of Prague. (pause) I always laugh because she was very straight-laced. The closest thing I ever heard her say that could be characterized as risque was that her father was seventy-five years old when she was born, but that because the town was so small everybody knew that he had to be the father. (laughter) Q: Well. And what's her educational experience? A: I don't think she had anything more than perhaps high school. Q: And was that in the old country? A: Yes and I couldn't think of the word before but they were called "gymnasiums." Q: Oh I see. A: Yes. That's equivalent of high school here. I think both she and my father had that gymnasium education. · Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield .. 5 Q: Do you know why she came to the United States? A: Oh I guess the whole family came over to better themselves. Q: And did they come to Chicago directly? A: All but one sister who wound up in New York. And she had two sisters here, and a brother. They were all here. Q: I see. So there were three sisters altogether. A: Yes. Q: Did you get to know any of those, your uncles or aunts? A: I knew them all except the one in New York. I only knew her by correspondence. · Q: What ~id her brother do? A: Her brother was in the insurance business. Quite successful. Q: Was she sympathetic to your father's Socialist views? A: She wasn't sympathetic to - anything that my father had as views, she simply was under his thumb, and whatever he said she did. (laughter) Q: Which was the disciplinarian in the family, your mother or your father? A: My father. Q: What kind of disciplinarian was he? Was he pretty strict? A: Well he was strict in the sense that he overawed us by his directions. There was never any physical punishment from either mother or father. It was entirely - he was in charge and you knew it that's all. Q: You remember the home in which you were born here in Chicago? A: Not from the time I lived there but subsequently when I ran for reelection to the senJlte the area where I was born had changed so materially that I could no longer make cap~tal of the fact that I was born in the district. Because that meant nothing to the people ""ho had moved into what was once a solid German neighborhood. I decided to go over and have a picture taken of the house that I was born in and publicize that in the local papers. I had a client in the lamp manufacturing business, and I had him bring lamps along and we went over and rang the doorbell and a gypsy answered the doorbell. And she said, "What the hell do you want?" (chuckles) So I tried to expla.in what I wanted. And I heard a voice come out of the bedroom that I know I was b4>rn in, because there was only one bedroom. He said, "Get out of here, don't bother us." At any rate I prevailed upon them to, in exchange for a few lamps and a twenty do lar bill, to allow me to be photographed with the woman in front of the house. Which I t en used in my political campaign. I have no recollection of it other than that visit. Q: I'll be darned. Well then your family had moved then to Wisconsin was it at that tim ? Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 6 A: When my father was assigned to the newspaper in Sheboygan we went there. And subsequently they assigned him to Milwaukee and we went there. Then they assigned him back to Chicago and we came back here. Q: How long a tour was that? How many years were involved? A: (pause) I would say about four. Q: About four years. A: Four years. Q: You weren't in school yet by the time . A: Oh, yes I was in school. I have some of my Sheboygan and Milwaukee report cards among my souvenirs. Q: Oh you do. A: Yes. Q: So you started to school then in Sheboygan? A: Yes. Q: What do you recall of the home in Sheboygan? A: Well, I don't want to get into long discussions but I guess there's no way of avoiding it. Because there was an incident there that, I think, bears retelling. We lived on the second floor of a building that housed the printing establishment that printed the paper. This building was owned by a man named Born, who was a wealthy man. Owned a park there that was known as Born's Park, an amusement park. And also bottled mineral water which he sold. Decided he wanted to be mayor of the city as a Socialist and my father ran his campaign. And he was elected. It didn't take long he was about to turn over the city waterworks to private enterprise directly in contradiction to his alleged socialistic beliefs. And my father rebelled and it turned out to be quite a battle as he was in a position to discontinue the printing of the newspaper. And then I recall this quite vividly. He came to our home, came upstairs to our flat, and he and my father went into the living room. And there was a sliding door separating that room from what they used to call a sitting room. And all of a sudden the voices got louder and louder and the door opened up and my father told Born to get out of our house as fast as he could and never come back in again. When he left, rather hurriedly, we said, "What happened?" He said, "He offered me this building in exchange for my stopping my fight against the waterworks deal." I get emotional about it now because I recall that my father fell into a dead faint. I can still see him lying there on the floor. With a little cold water my mother revived him. Then we set out on a crusade. Couldn't use the presses, but there was a handpress. And my father wrote up a little circular and ran it off on a handpress. And my brother who was two years older than I, I think I was five and he was seven, distributed those handbills all over the city. And defeated the ordinance that was fostered by Mr. Born. Mr. Born then, to retaliate, preferred charges against my father and the Socialist party with some trumped up charges, I don't know what they were. And the party sent Eugene Debs in to check on the story, as sort of an arbitrator. He heard all the evidence and found my father was completely innocent and Born was excommunicated by the party. From then on Debs and my father became very very close friends. ~-I ~ !.: Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 7 And if I may throw in a little incident involving Debs that I think might be of interest. He came with my father one afternoon to have dinner with us. My father had a bad habit of inviting anybody that he met to dinner even though many times there wasn't enough to feed the family. When they got there my father didn't have a key to - my mother was out. So Debs - I can see him now - there was a gangway between our house and the next house. Debs pried open the window and, in spite of his six foot five inches, he cra\\1led in, opened the kitchen door and let my father in. My mother came home and she was very angry because of the fact that we didn't have really enough food to go around. She apologized to Debs. She said, "All we're having tonight is lentil soup, and some potatoes and frankfurters cut in." - hot dogs today I guess - cut up about the size of a quarter. So that if you're lucky you got one in your soup. I remem~ her it so vividly, Debs responded, "There were times when I rode the rods" - which he did very frequently - "and I had nothing to eat. So if you just put a little water in, it'll go around." So that's what she did. I don't know how much you know about Eugene V. Debs. Q: Very little actually. A: In my opinion he was one of the greatest Americans that ever lived. He helped organize the railroad brotherhoods. Went to jail as a matter of principle because of the fact that he called the railroad strike. He opposed World War I as a capitalistic war and went to jail a second time as a matter of principle. Ran for president on the Socialist ticket at least four times. Marvelous orator. And I think recognized now, even by those who opposed him if any are still living, as having been a great American, responsible for many of the reforms that we take for granted today. And frankly my first vote for anybody was cast for Debs for president. Q: I'll be darned. Yes sir. Was your mother a good cook? A: The best. Q: Made do with little. A: She could make do with nothing. (laughter) It wasn't always that way. My dad at one time made as high as thirty~five dollars a week. Which in those days was a - probably equivalent to two hundred dollars today. He was a good newspaperman. If he could only keep his principles in his back pocket. (chuckles) Q: I see. Yes sir. (chuckles) So you started to school then in Sheboygan? A: Yes. I went to school in Sheboygan, went to school in Milwaukee. Then of course the rest of my schooling was here in Chicago. Q: What do you remember about the school in Sheboygan? A: Nothing really. Q: No occurrences or anything? No broken arms or anything at school? A: Oh yes I remember one thing that - it has nothing to do with school. It had raiped and we were playing in a puddle of water, using an old plank as a kind of a ship ojr a boat, disregarding the fact that it had nails coming out from it and I slipped and sa~ on it and wound up with the plank on my rearend on a trip to the hospital where they rem<>fed them. So that's about all I remember. (laughter) 1 Q: Let's see now you have one older brother. What other brothers and sisters did you ha e? Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 8 A: I had an older brother and a younger brother. Q: What was your older brother's name? A: David. Q: David. A: There's a tradition in our family, which I don't know the history of, that the oldest son was given the first name of his grandfather. So the family alternated, and does to this day, David Robert, Robert David. And so my father's name was Robert and my brother's name was David, and then his oldest son was named Robert and his son is named David. Q: I'll be darned. A: He incidently became a lawyer a year ago. So the Saltiel legal activity will continue in Chicago. Q: Well, good. What was your younger brother's name? A: Henry. Q: Was he born there in Sheboygan? A: No he was born in Chicago. Q: How much younger was he than you? A: He was two years younger than me. Q: Two years between each . . . A: Yes. Q: . . . the three of you. A: I think I was about five when we got to Sheboygan and he must have been three. Q: Now why did you move on to Milwaukee then? A: Because there was a Socialist German paper there that needed help. So the Socialist party sent my father there to see if he could build it up. Q: Do you recall any of the action that he took in building up that newspaper there? How did he go about doing that? A: I don't really know. I know he succeeded because they then sent him to Chicago to take over a paper here. Q: Were there any incidents such as with Mr. Born in Milwaukee? A: Well I don't know whether you ever heard of Victor Berger. He was the son of a very wealthy woman. Reputed to have the largest private library of anybody in the country. And he was a Socialist, and my father decided that he ought to run for Congress. Mrs. Berger was a multimillionaire and was very dead set against her son entering into politics. Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 9 SESSION 1, TAPE 1, SIDE 2 A: But my father prevailed upon her to agree and Berger went to Congress. Q: Oh. On the Socialist ... A: Socialist ticket. I think the first Socialist that ever served in Congress. And one of the interesting things that we used to laugh about was here was a man with a tremendously large library, very well read and educated, got excited in Congress and yelled across the chamber at a colleague a shaking fist, "I leave it to your conscience of which you ain't got none." (chuckles) That stayed in the family for years. So, all of which I doubt is of any interest to anybody. (laughter) Q: Do you recall - by this time you were about seven or so - do you recall your father discussing the issues of the· day as he saw it, by that time? A: Oh yes he ran for alderman of the old Twenty-second Ward. Which is now incidently the Forty-third where I live. We all believed he was elected. But of course we had no pollwatchers and at the end of the counting he lost by a very few hundred votes. But he made quite a campaign. Q: About when was this? A: Oh I can't - I can't fix the time. I think it was probably somewhere around 1909 or 1910. Q: So you were about the end of your grade school years at that time. A: Yes. Q: Did you get involved in the campaign in any way? A: No. Q: Hand out literature or anything? A: No. Oh yes, passing out handbills, yes sure, but that's all. Q: Do you remember any particular issues that he was proposing at that time, or supporting? A: No it was just a general thought that the city wasn't doing right by the downtrodden, poor people, the underprivileged. He, I assume, had some hopes of doing something about it. Q: Was that his only try for political office? A: Yes. Q: Did he seem particularly downtrodden after that concerning political office? A: No. No he had no illusions. I don't think he expected to get as close to winning1 as he did. It was a matter of principle with him, somebody had to carry the banner. He $r~~ ! Q: What about school years in Milwaukee? Did you have any more boards in your tailen11 ! Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 10 A: No. I don't even remember if the boards were in Milwaukee or Sheboygan. Q: I see. (laughter) Do you remember any of the teachers? A: No. No. No I have no -no recollection at all of any of that early period. Q: In your grade school years do you recall any reflection of your father's thinking in terms of the treatment you received from the other students in school? A: You mean was there any repercussion or something? Q: Yes. A: No. I don't think any of them even were aware of the fact that he ran. (pause) I don't really know what year it was. I think it was somewhere around where I said. (pause) So fire away. Q: When you returned to Chicago was the area generally a large Socialist thinking community? A: Well I won't say that they were socialistic thinking but they were union people. Working class neighborhood people. At that time the Socialist party, especially the German membership, was pretty well organized socially. They had social clubs and they had turnvereins. Turnvereins are the German gymnastic organizations. "Turners" they called them because of the fact that they do handsprings and whatever. And verein means society, so it was Society of Turners. And there were three or four of those on the North Side and they had picnics and just brought people together. While they may not have even understood the philosophy of Socialism, they enjoyed the fraternizing and the general effort to better conditions, so when they had a chance to vote their convictions they did. Q: Could you describe the community in which you were living then, after you came back to Chicago? Now it was primarily ethnically German I guess. A: It was 90 percent at least German. I think there were probably two other Jewish families there besides us. And I used to go to Mass with the kids and tip my hat to the brothers and sisters the same as they did. My father was an outspoken aetheist but he never tried to impose his thoughts on anyone else. We had a Christmas tree like everybody else did. One interesting thing happened. The brothers at St. Michaels Church, which was a block away from where we lived, would permit the boys to use the school yard for baseball, softball playing, provided we did their chores, including peeling potatoes and onions and filling the receptacles with holy water. The holy water was in a big barrel in the backyard and we would take little dippers and fill them full and go in and fill the receptacles in the church. My brother and I were the only two non-Catholics. Never entered our mind but one boy said, "Why should we keep running back and forth? Why don't we take the water out of the water trough in the front?" which was the water trough for the horses. We filled the receptacles with the water from the water trough instead of the blessed water from the barrel. We didn't know any better. But it bothered my brother, and he told my father. My father, atheist though he was, took my brother by the ear to the church. And he got ahold of- I don't know why I remember the name, the priest was Father Marks. And he said, "Tell him your story." And my brother did. All these kids were called in and they were really severely punished. My brother, who was thereafter ostracized -he was a stool pigeon. (laughter) Q: I'll be darned. ;,.. • ... i" Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 11 A: Well it bothered him that we did that. And it bothered my father too even though he didn't believe in that religion or any other religion. He was a man of principle even if ~u didn't agree with him. That enough? I don't know of anything else to talk about. Q: Did you mother generally follow your father's atheism, or was she churchgoing? I A: She didn't go to church but she was deeply religious, down underneath. The only conc~s-sion she got from him was that there was no pork allowed in the house. Q: Oh is that right? A: That was the one concession she insisted upon and he acquiesced. She used to confide in me that she was still religious. And she prayed and so forth but as far as I know never went to any synagogue or any temple. A: How did it come that you went to Mass, instead of going to a synagogue? Or did you go to both? A: No I didn't go to a synagogue, I didn't even know what it was. Went to Mass because the kids went to Mass. I knelt when they knelt, I didn't know why, but I did it, my brother did it. And my family had no objections. I do remember one time one woman got up right in the middle of the church and ordered me out. And I didn't understand what she was upset about, she was pointing at me, "Get out of here! Get out of here!" Of course I didn't pay any attention to her. Later on it dawned on me, she knew I was Jewish and then probably thought I was being sacrilegious or something, and trying to make me leave instead of trying to make a convert out of me. (laughter) Q: What about the fathers? Did they encourage you to go to catechism or that sort of thing? A: No. Not one ever approached and nobody ever objected. They just took it in stride. Q: What about the economic level of the community. Was it lower class or middle class or ... A: Well they were working people, many of them in the trades. Carpenters, electricians and . . . even a couple of taxi drivers that I can think of. And . . . I just can't think of anything else other than they were average working people. Some were rather poor. I remember some women coming in on Sunday morning after church asking my mother if they could have the coffee grounds out of our coffee pot. Which she of course readily gave them. From which I assume they made watered down coffee. But in the main they \\«lre people who were working, getting along reasonably well. Q: Where were they working? Generally in the same area or did they commute to other areas? A: I really don't know. Example cited. They went out on jobs wherever the job was. Q: Was there any particular industry in the vicinity? A: No. ! Q: What about social life? You've indicated the periodic picnics and that sortl of thing. Was there other types of activity that you engaged in or your family engaged in? A: Well that was principally what we engaged in because that's where my father's acti ity was. But there were many other things. Lincoln Park, which was within walking dist nee Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 12 of where we lived, had band concerts on Wednesday evening and Sunday afternoon. I didn't mind the Wednesday order to go to the concert, I did object to Sunday because that's when I wanted to play ball. But my father insisted that we go to those concerts. Because he said that learning about music and enjoying music was a very important part of a person's life. I'm very grateful to him because he forced me to go to these concerts because I became a great lover of music. Except rock and roll. But everything else I love from opera down and up again. And I attribute it to the fact that he pounded it into us. Q: Did you have musical training on any instrument? A: Well we had a teacher come every Sunday morning. I don't know where they got the fifty cents to pay him but they paid him fifty cents to teach my older brother and me violin and to improve our German. The German instruction came first and that he gave us together. Then he took my older brother for the violin instruction and I sneaked out the back door to the baseball field. So my older brother learned to play the violin, I never did. I learned to play baseball. (laughter) Q: What was your younger brother doing at that time? A: I guess he was sitting around watching. Q: Watching, I see. (chuckles) Was there any theater in the area that you .. A: Oh I - I forgot completely. My father, as one of his jobs, he managed the German theater at Chicago. Bush Temple. It was Bush Temple Conservatory. The building still stands, I don't know whether the theater's still there. That's at Chicago Avenue and Clark Street. And he managed that German theater there for several years. Q: What kind of productions would they have? A: They had a stock company that put on plays, generally light operettas. One that sticks out in my mind is Der Fledermaus, which in German is "The Bat." And he managed the theater and did fairly well. Q: Did you attend many of the . . . A: Oh I was -yes I was there regularly. Q: Did you get involved with the management or the working of the theater, usher or anything? A: No but strangely enough I later became a member of the stagehands union. At the age of fifteen. Q: How did that come about? A: Well one of my friends in high school who was older than I and had evidently stayed out of high school for two years was a great baseball player and we became great friends. I went to call on him on Labor Day, the day before school was to recommence, for a last day to play ball and his mother said, "Well don't you know he starts to work today." And I said, "Work at what?" She said, "Well he's an electrician at the Garrick Theater." Which was then at Randolph Street right off of Clark. And she said, "Why don't you go in, he's still in bed." So I went in and I said, "What's this?" He says, "Well my father is the head electrician at the Garrick Theater and I'm going· to be an assistant electrician there. Would you like i l' 11'' Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield ... 13 a job?" And I said, "Why not? What kind of a job?" He said, "Property boy." And said, "I think I can get you on." I went down with him and they put me to work. I called up home between the matinee and the evening show, it was a Labor Day matinee, and told my mother and she said, "You come right home." (chuckles) And I said, "No I can't do it. I got a job that pays me seventy-five cents a show. That's $6.75 a week, nine shows." I said, "We can use that." Well she - "I'll talk to you when you get home." She was afraid that the theater was maybe too rough for a young fifteen-yearold boy. But I stayed there through high school and law school. Q: Was this working in the evening? A: In the evenings, with Wednesday and Saturday matinees. So I continued on as a stagehand and ... finally worked up to five dollars a show. So when I started to practice law for my uncle whom I mentioned earlier he paid me five dollars a week, and I was making forty-five dollars a week in the theater. I turned that money over to my mother and she used it to pay my older brother's schooling in the Walton School of Accounting, and he became a CPA [Certified Public Accountant]. Q: What did a stagehand do in those days? A: There were three divisions. There's the property division where I worked, and that handled the personal articles like tables, chairs, hanging of mirrors, sweeping the stage and things of that nature. And then there was another branch which was the carpenter division, they handled the scenery. Then the electrical -division which handled the lights, the spotlights and so forth. So it was very interesting. I could write a book on my experiences in the theater. Q: What were some of those experiences? Did you meet some of the artists of the day? A: I'm just afraid if I got on in that field it would take six or seven volumes, becau~ I met them all. John Barrymore and his sister, Ethel Barrymore, and brother, Liqnel Barrymore. Eddy Cantor. Al Jolson. Ed Winn. Fanny Brice. Name them and tltey were there. And I could tell stories about most of them. Q: Well. What would be a most interesting story about those people? A: I think the most interesting but it'd take me ... I don't want to dwell too much on this because you know my feelings about developing this from a personal standpoint. Very frankly, you can edit this out if you want to. I don't think anybody's going to be interested in my childhood or my activities - I can't take myself that seriously. But there was. an experience that I think might be of interest. There was a play called "The Affairs of Anatol" at the Fine Arts Theater on Michigan Avenue. John Barrymore starred in it. It was a play which began with a man-about-town sitting at an outdoor cafe with a very young girl, telling her of his escapades, and getting drunk while he's talking to her. Now just bear that in mind because this particular day Barrymore didn't show up. And the people were getting very restless. The audience was applauding. The stage manager went out three, four times and said, "Mr. Barrymore will be here shortly. He is slightly indisposed." Of course everybody knew he was a complete drunk. About an hour later he came in staggering. He had a handkerchief wrapped around his finger and whimpering, "I cut my finger." His wife, his first wife who was a sout®rn belle, met him on the stage and she ripped that handkerchief off his finger and it wasn't cut. And she said, "You get in there and get ready to perform." So he staggered into his dressing room. · Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 14 We had to prop him up in the chair. We used ginger ale in place of champagne, and he was filling one glass after another, acting like a sober man getting drunk. Bear in mind he was already really very drunk. We all punched holes into the curtain to watch to see what was going to happen. The whole curtain was lined up with the stagehands peeking through, expecting him to fall on his face. This drunken man gave a performance of a sober man getting drunk that was remarkable. He never missed a syllable, a word, a period, a pause or anything. He delivered the most remarkable theatrical performance I ever saw in my life. It was so great that the audience forgot all about the delay of an hour and a half and gave him a standing ovation. When the curtain went down then we had to carry him off, he was a rag. We had to delay the next scene for a few minutes and then he went on and he went through the entire play, never missed a line or a word! Drunk all the time he was performing. That was the most remarkable theatrical performance I ever witnessed. So that's the standout. I always laughingly say that I had a speaking acquaintance with John Barrymore. Christmas matinee he came by where I was getting props ready, and I said, "Merry Christmas, Mr. Barrymore." And he says, "Merry Christmas, hell. What kind of a Christmas is it when you have to work?" And he walked on. So I was on speaking terms with him. (laughter) So that's going to end the episodes in the theater although there were many. Q: Yes sir. How about the labor situation there. Was the labor organized when you joined the force in the theater? A: Yes they were well organized. The stagehands union was once a part of the motion picture operators union, but they separated. The electrical department and the carpenter department was organized. The property department that I was working in was not organized but they were beginning to organize and then I got what was really an apprentice membership. We were called "clearers" because our job was to clear the stage of the small articles, chairs, sofas, tables and so on. And then later on we were taken into the union. They were well organized. Had a very strong union. Q: Were there any confrontations that came up with management? Between the unions and ... A: The only one that came up turned out to be a fraud, which was after I already had left the work in the theater. Several people went to jail. They pulled a strike on the moving picture studios. The stagehands union cooperated, and it was a complete shakedown. We had a business agent here, who was in charge of the union, by the name of Brown that I knew intimately from working with him, and when I read about a possible strike being called I very naively called Brown on the phone. Said, "You know I owe a debt of gratitude to the union. I could probably not have gone either through high school or law school without the money I earned in the theatre and I want to repay that debt partially by doing what I can. I want to offer my services as an attorney should you need it." I can hear his words yet, he said, "That's damn decent of you. I'll tell that to the boys. We don't have a lawyer, we hire them on the hoof." The words have stayed with me all those years. I never heard from him. And then I learned later of course that they didn't need a lawyer, they needed a guardian angel because they went to jail eventually. Q: And then you say it was a shakedown. What- what ... A: They were trying to get concessions from the moving picture studios. I don't know exactly what they were after but it did cost the moving picture producers heavily. • Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 15 And it was long after they had paid that the scandal broke. And there .was a man named Bio:ff as I recall who was the leader. He went to jail also. But this was long after the studios paid the shakedown money, ran into hundreds of thousands of dollars. But that was the closest - in answer to your question - the closest that we came to any labor strife. A: And that was after you had left. Q: Yes. In those days we had about sixteen legitimate theaters in Chicago's Loop, and there were a lot of people employed. And then the moving picture theaters, like the Chicago Theater, the State and Lake and the Marlbro and the Granada and so forth started putting on stage shows. So the stagehands expanded into those. SESSION 1, TAPE 2, SIDE 1 Q: What do you remember of your high school days? A: Oh I remember a lot of things that- it would take me days to tell. Q: What school did you go to? A: It was - originally North Division, was changed to Waller High School just shortly before I got there. It was recently changed again, to Lincoln Park High School. Q: Do your remember any particular teachers that were influential in your ... A: Well we had a principal by the name of Westcott, Oliver Westcott, who was a dynaptic person. Really should have been president of a university. He was in my opinion that capable. He retired because of age. He was succeeded by a man named Adams, who was strictly a political appointee. Nice enough guy but certainly didn't have the ability to run a high school. Well I remember a Mrs. McLean, who taught mathematics and was head of the Lite11ary Society. She got angry with me because, as its captain, I called the baseball tttam together, and said, "You're going either to be baseball players or actors, you can't be both." The school was small and we didn't have enough to go around. Since she was calling rehearsals and I was calling practice, there was a constant conflict. So the word got to :her and she sent somebody to tell me to come and see her. And I said, "She wants to see me, she knows where I am." And she came. (laughter) And we became very good friEmds after that. (chuckles) But I guess I had my father's independent spirit. (laughter) Q: Who won out in that case? A: Neither one of us, we just agreed to schedule practice and rehearsals at different times. And the long and short of it was I became president of the Literary Society. Q: Oh is that right. (laughter) Were you manager of the baseball . . . A: I was the manager. They called us captain in those days. Manager was the one that took care of the business, arranging schedules and so on. I remember one incident. We were invited to play in one of the suburbs, and it was a big deal for boys to go to the suburbs, it was like going to Europe. But we were advised that if we had a black player on our team not to bring him. And we did have. And I caJled the team together and I said, "We're not going." And they were - oh they were ery upset. And they ... I said, "We have a team, and we aren't going to separate it." So
Object Description
Title | Saltiel, Edward P. - Interview and Memoir |
Subject |
Chicago (Ill.)--Politics and Government Illinois--Politics and Government Illinois General Assembly--House Illinois General Assembly--Senate Lawyers |
Description | Saltiel, Republican member of the Illinois House of Representatives 1935-45 and the Illinois Senate 1947-55, discusses his years in the General Assembly: legislation involving the Chicago Crime Commission, unemployment compensation, public utilities and railroads, and health, education, and judiciary legislation. Also discusses his years before the legislature: law school, law practice, running for a judicial position on the Socialist ticket, and politics and life in Chicago. He also recalls his more recent work with judicial reform and the United Nations Commission on Migration. |
Creator | Saltiel, Edward P. (1897-1990) |
Contributing Institution | Oral History Collection, Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield |
Contributors | Waggoner, Horace Q. [interviewer] |
Date | 1982 |
Type | text; sound |
Digital Format | PDF; MP3 |
Identifier | SA37 |
Language | en |
Relation | ILLINOIS GENERAL ASSEMBLY ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM |
Rights | © Board of Trustees of the University of Illinois. For permission to reproduce, distribute, or otherwise use this material, please contact: Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield, One University Plaza, MS BRK 140, Springfield IL 62703-5407. Phone: (217) 206-6520. http://library.uis.edu/archives/index.html |
Collection Name | Oral History Collection of the University of Illinois at Springfield |
Description
Title | Edward P. Saltiel Memoir - Part 1 |
Rights | © Board of Trustees of the University of Illinois. For permission to reproduce, distribute, or otherwise use this material, please contact: Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield, One University Plaza, MS BRK 140, Springfield IL 62703-5407. Phone: (217) 206-6520. http://library.uis.edu/archives/index.html |
Transcript | University of Illinois at Springfield Norris L Brookens Library Archives/Special Collections Edward P. Saltiel Memoir SA37. Saltiel, Edward P. (1897-1990) Interview and memoir 17 tapes, 860 mins., 175 pp., plus index ILLINOIS GENERAL ASSEMBLY ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM Saltiel, Republican member of the Illinois House of Representatives 1935-45 and the Illinois Senate 1947-55, discusses his years in the General Assembly: legislation involving the Chicago Crime Commission, unemployment compensation, public utilities and railroads, and health, education, and judiciary legislation. Also discusses his years before the legislature: law school, law practice, running for a judicial position on the Socialist ticket, and politics and life in Chicago. He also recalls his more recent work with judicial reform and the United Nations Commission on Migration. Interview by Horace Q. Waggoner, 1982 OPEN See collateral file: interviewer's notes and photocopies of photographs. Archives/Special Collections LIB 144 University of Illinois at Springfield One University Plaza, MS BRK 140 Springfield IL 62703-5407 © 1982, University of Illinois Board of Trustees Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield ILLINOIS GENERAL ASSEMBLY ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM PREVIOUS TITLES IN SERIES Martin B. Lohmann Memoir, 1 Vol. (1980) Bernice T. VanDer Vries Memoir, 3 Vols. (1980) Walter J. Reum Memoir, 2 Vols. (1980) Thomas A. McGloon Memoir, 2 Vols. (1981) John W. Fribley Memoir, 2 Vols. (1981) Charles W. Clabaugh Memoir, 2 Vols. (1982) Cecil A. Partee Memoir, 2 Vols. (1982) Elbert S. Smith Memoir, 2 Vols. (1982) Frances L. Dawson Memoir, 2 Vols. (1982) Robert W. McCarthy Memoir, 2 Vols. (1983) John C. Parkhurst Memoir, 2 Vols. (1984) Corneal A. Davis Memoir, 2 Vols. (1984) Cumulative Index, 1980-1984 .t.l Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield EDWARD P. SALTIEL ILLINOIS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 1935-1945 ILLINOIS SENATE, 1947-1955 Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield • Preface This oral history of Edward P. Saltiel's service in the Illinois General Assembly is a product of the Illinois Legislative Research Unit's General Assembly Oral History Program. The oral history technique adds a distinctive new dimension to the unit's statutory responsibility for performing research and collecting information concerning the government of the state. Edward P. Saltiel was born in Chicago, Illinois, January 8, 1897. At an early age, he moved with his family to Wisconsin where his father, an ardent Socialist, was assigned to improve the lot of Socialist newspapers, first in Sheboygan and then in Milwaukee. In his reminiscenses of this period of his life, he recalls the association of his father with Socialist leader Eugene Debs. After some four years in Wisconsin, the family returned to Chicago where Mr. Saltiel completed his education. While attending the John Marshall School of Law, he worked as a stagehand in the Chicago Loop. His recounting of his experiences during this work are most interesting as are his descriptions of life in Chicago during the first quarter of this century. Upon graduation from law school in 1918 he launched upon his lifetime practice of law in Chicago. In 1922, he married Lillian Wolf. Mr. Saltiel's only major involvement in politics prior to the 1930's was an unsuccessful bid for judgeship on the Socialist ticket in 1921. Ten years later, in 1931, he became a Republican precinct captain in support of William Thompson's unsuccessful try to regain the Chicago mayorship. Finding an interest in political office, he ran for the state house of representatives in 1932 only to once again fail to find success. Undeterred, he tried again in 1934 and won, retaining the seat until 1944 when he ran unsuccessfully for the state senate. Two years later, with the interim filled with support of the Illinois-Michigan Canal Commission as part of his ongoing law practice, another try for the senate seat proved successful and he served there until 1954. Mr. Saltiel's major legislative interests were in the fields of health, education and judiciary. A major achievement was the introduction of laws requiring premarital physical examinations. In education, he was particularly concerned with laws pertaining to the operation of schools. His activities in support of judicial reform continued after he left the legislature. Readers of this oral history should bear in mind that it is a transcript of the spoken word. Its informal conversational style represents a deliberate attempt to encourage candor and to tap the narrator's memory. However persons interested in listening to the hwes should understand that editorial considerations produced a text that differs somewhat from the original recordings. Both the recordings and this transcript should be regarded as a v Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield primary historical source as no effort was made to correct or challenge the narrator. Neither the Illinois Legislative Research Unit nor Sangamon State University is responsible for the factual accuracy of the memoir, nor for the views expressed therein; these are for the reader to judge. The tape recorded interviews were conducted by Horace Waggoner during the spring of 1982. Mr. Waggoner was born in 1924 in Waggoner, a small farm-service community in central Illinois. At age 18, he enlisted for military service in World War II and, as a U. S. Air Force commissioned officer, continued to serve until 1973. Upon leaving service, he resumed his formal education, achieving a masters degree in history at Sangamon State University in 1975. His association with the Sangamon State University Oral History Office dates from 1976. Betty Lewis and Pat Grider transcribed the tapes. After the transcriptions were reviewed by Mr. Saltiel and edited by Horace Waggoner, Julie Allen prepared the typescript. Florence Hardin compiled the index. The Chicago Tribune provided valuable assistance in the research effort. This oral history may be read, quoted and cited freely. It may not be reproduced in whole or in part by any means, electronic or mechanical, without written permission from the Illinois Legislative Research Unit, Room 107, Stratton Building, Springfield, Illinois, 62706. vi ... Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield ... Table of Contents Preface .................................................................................................................................................. v The Years Before ................................................................................................................................ 1 Family background - Wisconsin interlude - Grade school - High school - Semi-pro baseball - John Marshall School of Law - Stagehand work - Courtship and marriage - Knights of Pythias - Law practice - Life in Chicago- Socialist candidate - Chicago politics (1920's-1930's) The General Assembly Years ........................................................................................................... 50 Campaigning- Election to house- Getting started- Pre-marriage exami- .. nation bill - Broyle's bills - Lobbyists - Relief legislation - Sales tax - Unemployment compensation - Legislative Council - Legislative Reference Bureau - Appropriations - Budgetary Commission - Conservation legislation -Judicial reform - Gateway amendment- Revenue legislation - Education legislation - Election to senate - Chicago Crime Commission bills - Illinois-Michigan Canal Commission Transportation legislation - Real estate legislation - Public Utilities and Railroads Committee - Civil Service Advisory Committee - Fair Employment Practices Commission - City charter bill - Hay fever bill - Reapportionment - Leaving the legislature The Years After .................................................................................................................................. 158 Judicial reform - United Nations Commission on migration between nations - Guidance for person considering going to legislature Index...................................................................................................................................................... 170 Illustrations following page 83. Vll Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield Edward P. Sal tiel SESSION 1, TAPE 1, SIDE 1 Q: When were you born? A: January 8, 1897. Q: And where were you born? A: Chicago, Illinois. Q: What part of Chicago? A: On the north side. To be accurate, Orchard and North Avenue. Q: What was your father's name? A: Robert. Q: Where had the Saltiel's come from? How long had they been in Chicago? A: Oh about a hundred years. They originally are of Spanish-Portugal origin. But w.-..en the Jews were driven out of Spain, some - what? five hundred years ago or so, they ~all went into different directions and my father's family wound up in Holland. And entrusted to the Holland government all of their assets, which I understand was substantial, but they never were able to recoup them. Q: I'll be darned. A: Then my father's parents moved to England. And they became English citizens. My father was actually born in two places. His father was amateur chess champion of Europe and he was on a tour with his pregnant wife, and they miscalculated, and the child was about to be born in Barcelona, Spain, when they had expected it wouldn't arrive until they got back to England. Spain had compulsory military service and they were worried t~at perhaps they wouldn't allow a male child, if it was a male child, to leave the country becapse he'd be a Spanish citizen. Whether that was good thinking or not I don't know, but at ~ny rate they had enough influence to have the English embassy take over the hotel bedroom, ut the English flag up, make that bedroom part of the British embassy, or Bri ish consulate. And so when my father was born he was born on English soil althoug in Barcelona, Spain. Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 2 So when he came over here - see he was born in 1865, I guess he got here about 1880. I think he was about fifteen years old when he got here. He swore off allegiance to the King of England at that time with no mention of his physical birth in Spain. So, that's about the most interesting chapter of my family that I can give you. (chuckles) Q: What part of England did they live? A: All I ever remember was they mentioned Middlesex County. I don't know where that is, I think it's somewhere outside of London. Q: Did you know your grandfather by any chance? A: No I didn't know either of my grandfathers. My mother's father never got here. My father's father died here in Chicago before I was born. My mother's mother died before I was born, she's buried here. And my father's mother is also buried in Chicago. I knew her. So out of the four grandparents, I met one. Q: Do you remember much about your Grandmother Sal tiel? A: I only remember one thing, that she was a very stately lady, very dignified. Very prim and proper. But most importantly she always carried what we would today call a shopping bag into which we kids would dive for the goodies she brought us. So that's my principle recollection. (laughter) Q: Did she live with your family? A: She lived with my father's brother who was a lawyer here in Chicago. Q: How many brothers and sisters did your father have? A: My father had one brother. Q: What was his name? A: Leopold Saltiel. Q: And he was a lawyer . . . A: He was a lawyer here in Chicago. Q: Had he received his education in the United States? A: He received his . . . what was equivalent to high school in Vienna. The family went eventually from London to Vienna, where my father got his early education also. But then he came here and finished his education here. I'm talking now about my uncle. Q: Do you know what school he went to here? A: Lake Forest . . . was the name of the law school. I'm not sure if it's connected with Lake Forest College or not. Q: What kind of law was he involved with? Do you recall? A: General, general practice. In his days there were no real specialists. In fact in my day either, until now. So he handled everything. I don't think he did much in the criminal field. ... Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 3 Q: Did your father say much about the old country, either England or Vienna, in your talking with him? A: No he just talked mainly about what the German people always liked to refer to as "gemietlichkeit," if you know what that means. I guess the best way to define it would be enjoying life. Meeting people and enjoying them and participating in music and arts and so forth. Q: Did he ever indicate he might like to go back to Vienna? A: Oh no. No. He was very happy here. But he was a rabid Socialist and one of the organizers of the Nationalist Socialist party. Q: Oh is that right. A: Yes. Very close friend of Eugene V. Debs of whom you've probably heard. Q: Yes. Did you discuss that with him, as to how he became Socialist inclined? A: Well I never discussed it with him. I just recognized the fact that he was interested in the working people and the poor people who, in his opinion, were being ground underfoot by the profit motive of the capitalistic system. And it was his idea that under socialism everybody would be given the rights that he felt a human being was entitled to. Completely altruistic and somewhat theoretical but motivated by the best of spirit. Q: Was he in Socialist organizations here in the Chicago area? A: Well he belonged to the Socialist party here. He edited the German newspaper that was published by the Socialist party. At one time when we were in Wisconsin ... we moved first to Sheboygan, Wisconsin, and there he was editor of the Socialist paper there. Then we moved to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, where he edited another paper. Socialist party at ~hat time had newspapers in various parts of the country. And whenever one of them'd start bogging down he was the troubleshooter. They'd send him there to try to build the paper up. So ... and he wound up running for lieutenant governor of Wisconsin on the Socialist ticket. Q: Oh. Well. About what year was that? Do you recall? A: Oh, 1902, 1903, somewhere in there. Q: You weren't very old at that time then? A: I think I was about five years old. Q: Do you recall anything about that? A: I remember a lot - oh I could tell incidents - the lore of some of the things - but the one that always stuck in my memory was Bob La Follette was running for governor on the Republican ticket and he met my father at a railroad station. And he said to him, "You know, truth be known, I'm a Socialist at heart myself." And my father said, "Do you want a party application? I'd be glad to give it to you." (laughter) Q: I don't suppose that was followed through on though? A: No. They both got a laugh out of it. Q: .Where did your father go to school here in the United States? cation? I' I Did he continue his tdu- Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 4 A: No he did not. He was self-educated and believe it or not he wound up speaking and writing and reading six languages. Q: Six languages, my goodness. A: He was an extremely well-read man. In my opinion far better educated than those who sleep through college, because he got his education because he wanted it. He was a very brilliant man but he couldn't make a living. He was out of work more than he was in work. (chuckles) Q: What occupation other than the newspaper was he ... A: Principally in the newspaper field. At one time when we were in Wisconsin he was an organizer for the brewers' union. But that was I think for a short period. But his principal work was in the newspaper field but - his last job was with the Chicago Abend Post here, which of course is a !!apitalistic newspaper but ... he quit there because they wanted him to write editorials that went against his beliefs and he wouldn't write them. Q: I'll be darned. A: So I don't know whether he quit or it was by mutual consent. (laughter) Q: How about your mother. What was her name? A: My mother's maiden name was Arnstein. She was born in what is now Czechoslovakia. It was then part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Q: When did she come to the United States? A: Well she must have come around the same time my father did because they got married . . . I think they married in 1887, or somewhere in there. Somewhere I have a wedding invitation. I noticed that in some of these you have pictures and maybe that would be an interesting reproduction. Q: Yes sir. What was her given name? A: Bertha. \ Q: Bertha. Do you recall her talking much about the Austro-Hungarian Empire? A: No. No, they - her parents evidently had a little general store in a city some thirty miles out of Prague. (pause) I always laugh because she was very straight-laced. The closest thing I ever heard her say that could be characterized as risque was that her father was seventy-five years old when she was born, but that because the town was so small everybody knew that he had to be the father. (laughter) Q: Well. And what's her educational experience? A: I don't think she had anything more than perhaps high school. Q: And was that in the old country? A: Yes and I couldn't think of the word before but they were called "gymnasiums." Q: Oh I see. A: Yes. That's equivalent of high school here. I think both she and my father had that gymnasium education. · Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield .. 5 Q: Do you know why she came to the United States? A: Oh I guess the whole family came over to better themselves. Q: And did they come to Chicago directly? A: All but one sister who wound up in New York. And she had two sisters here, and a brother. They were all here. Q: I see. So there were three sisters altogether. A: Yes. Q: Did you get to know any of those, your uncles or aunts? A: I knew them all except the one in New York. I only knew her by correspondence. · Q: What ~id her brother do? A: Her brother was in the insurance business. Quite successful. Q: Was she sympathetic to your father's Socialist views? A: She wasn't sympathetic to - anything that my father had as views, she simply was under his thumb, and whatever he said she did. (laughter) Q: Which was the disciplinarian in the family, your mother or your father? A: My father. Q: What kind of disciplinarian was he? Was he pretty strict? A: Well he was strict in the sense that he overawed us by his directions. There was never any physical punishment from either mother or father. It was entirely - he was in charge and you knew it that's all. Q: You remember the home in which you were born here in Chicago? A: Not from the time I lived there but subsequently when I ran for reelection to the senJlte the area where I was born had changed so materially that I could no longer make cap~tal of the fact that I was born in the district. Because that meant nothing to the people ""ho had moved into what was once a solid German neighborhood. I decided to go over and have a picture taken of the house that I was born in and publicize that in the local papers. I had a client in the lamp manufacturing business, and I had him bring lamps along and we went over and rang the doorbell and a gypsy answered the doorbell. And she said, "What the hell do you want?" (chuckles) So I tried to expla.in what I wanted. And I heard a voice come out of the bedroom that I know I was b4>rn in, because there was only one bedroom. He said, "Get out of here, don't bother us." At any rate I prevailed upon them to, in exchange for a few lamps and a twenty do lar bill, to allow me to be photographed with the woman in front of the house. Which I t en used in my political campaign. I have no recollection of it other than that visit. Q: I'll be darned. Well then your family had moved then to Wisconsin was it at that tim ? Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 6 A: When my father was assigned to the newspaper in Sheboygan we went there. And subsequently they assigned him to Milwaukee and we went there. Then they assigned him back to Chicago and we came back here. Q: How long a tour was that? How many years were involved? A: (pause) I would say about four. Q: About four years. A: Four years. Q: You weren't in school yet by the time . A: Oh, yes I was in school. I have some of my Sheboygan and Milwaukee report cards among my souvenirs. Q: Oh you do. A: Yes. Q: So you started to school then in Sheboygan? A: Yes. Q: What do you recall of the home in Sheboygan? A: Well, I don't want to get into long discussions but I guess there's no way of avoiding it. Because there was an incident there that, I think, bears retelling. We lived on the second floor of a building that housed the printing establishment that printed the paper. This building was owned by a man named Born, who was a wealthy man. Owned a park there that was known as Born's Park, an amusement park. And also bottled mineral water which he sold. Decided he wanted to be mayor of the city as a Socialist and my father ran his campaign. And he was elected. It didn't take long he was about to turn over the city waterworks to private enterprise directly in contradiction to his alleged socialistic beliefs. And my father rebelled and it turned out to be quite a battle as he was in a position to discontinue the printing of the newspaper. And then I recall this quite vividly. He came to our home, came upstairs to our flat, and he and my father went into the living room. And there was a sliding door separating that room from what they used to call a sitting room. And all of a sudden the voices got louder and louder and the door opened up and my father told Born to get out of our house as fast as he could and never come back in again. When he left, rather hurriedly, we said, "What happened?" He said, "He offered me this building in exchange for my stopping my fight against the waterworks deal." I get emotional about it now because I recall that my father fell into a dead faint. I can still see him lying there on the floor. With a little cold water my mother revived him. Then we set out on a crusade. Couldn't use the presses, but there was a handpress. And my father wrote up a little circular and ran it off on a handpress. And my brother who was two years older than I, I think I was five and he was seven, distributed those handbills all over the city. And defeated the ordinance that was fostered by Mr. Born. Mr. Born then, to retaliate, preferred charges against my father and the Socialist party with some trumped up charges, I don't know what they were. And the party sent Eugene Debs in to check on the story, as sort of an arbitrator. He heard all the evidence and found my father was completely innocent and Born was excommunicated by the party. From then on Debs and my father became very very close friends. ~-I ~ !.: Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 7 And if I may throw in a little incident involving Debs that I think might be of interest. He came with my father one afternoon to have dinner with us. My father had a bad habit of inviting anybody that he met to dinner even though many times there wasn't enough to feed the family. When they got there my father didn't have a key to - my mother was out. So Debs - I can see him now - there was a gangway between our house and the next house. Debs pried open the window and, in spite of his six foot five inches, he cra\\1led in, opened the kitchen door and let my father in. My mother came home and she was very angry because of the fact that we didn't have really enough food to go around. She apologized to Debs. She said, "All we're having tonight is lentil soup, and some potatoes and frankfurters cut in." - hot dogs today I guess - cut up about the size of a quarter. So that if you're lucky you got one in your soup. I remem~ her it so vividly, Debs responded, "There were times when I rode the rods" - which he did very frequently - "and I had nothing to eat. So if you just put a little water in, it'll go around." So that's what she did. I don't know how much you know about Eugene V. Debs. Q: Very little actually. A: In my opinion he was one of the greatest Americans that ever lived. He helped organize the railroad brotherhoods. Went to jail as a matter of principle because of the fact that he called the railroad strike. He opposed World War I as a capitalistic war and went to jail a second time as a matter of principle. Ran for president on the Socialist ticket at least four times. Marvelous orator. And I think recognized now, even by those who opposed him if any are still living, as having been a great American, responsible for many of the reforms that we take for granted today. And frankly my first vote for anybody was cast for Debs for president. Q: I'll be darned. Yes sir. Was your mother a good cook? A: The best. Q: Made do with little. A: She could make do with nothing. (laughter) It wasn't always that way. My dad at one time made as high as thirty~five dollars a week. Which in those days was a - probably equivalent to two hundred dollars today. He was a good newspaperman. If he could only keep his principles in his back pocket. (chuckles) Q: I see. Yes sir. (chuckles) So you started to school then in Sheboygan? A: Yes. I went to school in Sheboygan, went to school in Milwaukee. Then of course the rest of my schooling was here in Chicago. Q: What do you remember about the school in Sheboygan? A: Nothing really. Q: No occurrences or anything? No broken arms or anything at school? A: Oh yes I remember one thing that - it has nothing to do with school. It had raiped and we were playing in a puddle of water, using an old plank as a kind of a ship ojr a boat, disregarding the fact that it had nails coming out from it and I slipped and sa~ on it and wound up with the plank on my rearend on a trip to the hospital where they rem<>fed them. So that's about all I remember. (laughter) 1 Q: Let's see now you have one older brother. What other brothers and sisters did you ha e? Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 8 A: I had an older brother and a younger brother. Q: What was your older brother's name? A: David. Q: David. A: There's a tradition in our family, which I don't know the history of, that the oldest son was given the first name of his grandfather. So the family alternated, and does to this day, David Robert, Robert David. And so my father's name was Robert and my brother's name was David, and then his oldest son was named Robert and his son is named David. Q: I'll be darned. A: He incidently became a lawyer a year ago. So the Saltiel legal activity will continue in Chicago. Q: Well, good. What was your younger brother's name? A: Henry. Q: Was he born there in Sheboygan? A: No he was born in Chicago. Q: How much younger was he than you? A: He was two years younger than me. Q: Two years between each . . . A: Yes. Q: . . . the three of you. A: I think I was about five when we got to Sheboygan and he must have been three. Q: Now why did you move on to Milwaukee then? A: Because there was a Socialist German paper there that needed help. So the Socialist party sent my father there to see if he could build it up. Q: Do you recall any of the action that he took in building up that newspaper there? How did he go about doing that? A: I don't really know. I know he succeeded because they then sent him to Chicago to take over a paper here. Q: Were there any incidents such as with Mr. Born in Milwaukee? A: Well I don't know whether you ever heard of Victor Berger. He was the son of a very wealthy woman. Reputed to have the largest private library of anybody in the country. And he was a Socialist, and my father decided that he ought to run for Congress. Mrs. Berger was a multimillionaire and was very dead set against her son entering into politics. Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 9 SESSION 1, TAPE 1, SIDE 2 A: But my father prevailed upon her to agree and Berger went to Congress. Q: Oh. On the Socialist ... A: Socialist ticket. I think the first Socialist that ever served in Congress. And one of the interesting things that we used to laugh about was here was a man with a tremendously large library, very well read and educated, got excited in Congress and yelled across the chamber at a colleague a shaking fist, "I leave it to your conscience of which you ain't got none." (chuckles) That stayed in the family for years. So, all of which I doubt is of any interest to anybody. (laughter) Q: Do you recall - by this time you were about seven or so - do you recall your father discussing the issues of the· day as he saw it, by that time? A: Oh yes he ran for alderman of the old Twenty-second Ward. Which is now incidently the Forty-third where I live. We all believed he was elected. But of course we had no pollwatchers and at the end of the counting he lost by a very few hundred votes. But he made quite a campaign. Q: About when was this? A: Oh I can't - I can't fix the time. I think it was probably somewhere around 1909 or 1910. Q: So you were about the end of your grade school years at that time. A: Yes. Q: Did you get involved in the campaign in any way? A: No. Q: Hand out literature or anything? A: No. Oh yes, passing out handbills, yes sure, but that's all. Q: Do you remember any particular issues that he was proposing at that time, or supporting? A: No it was just a general thought that the city wasn't doing right by the downtrodden, poor people, the underprivileged. He, I assume, had some hopes of doing something about it. Q: Was that his only try for political office? A: Yes. Q: Did he seem particularly downtrodden after that concerning political office? A: No. No he had no illusions. I don't think he expected to get as close to winning1 as he did. It was a matter of principle with him, somebody had to carry the banner. He $r~~ ! Q: What about school years in Milwaukee? Did you have any more boards in your tailen11 ! Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 10 A: No. I don't even remember if the boards were in Milwaukee or Sheboygan. Q: I see. (laughter) Do you remember any of the teachers? A: No. No. No I have no -no recollection at all of any of that early period. Q: In your grade school years do you recall any reflection of your father's thinking in terms of the treatment you received from the other students in school? A: You mean was there any repercussion or something? Q: Yes. A: No. I don't think any of them even were aware of the fact that he ran. (pause) I don't really know what year it was. I think it was somewhere around where I said. (pause) So fire away. Q: When you returned to Chicago was the area generally a large Socialist thinking community? A: Well I won't say that they were socialistic thinking but they were union people. Working class neighborhood people. At that time the Socialist party, especially the German membership, was pretty well organized socially. They had social clubs and they had turnvereins. Turnvereins are the German gymnastic organizations. "Turners" they called them because of the fact that they do handsprings and whatever. And verein means society, so it was Society of Turners. And there were three or four of those on the North Side and they had picnics and just brought people together. While they may not have even understood the philosophy of Socialism, they enjoyed the fraternizing and the general effort to better conditions, so when they had a chance to vote their convictions they did. Q: Could you describe the community in which you were living then, after you came back to Chicago? Now it was primarily ethnically German I guess. A: It was 90 percent at least German. I think there were probably two other Jewish families there besides us. And I used to go to Mass with the kids and tip my hat to the brothers and sisters the same as they did. My father was an outspoken aetheist but he never tried to impose his thoughts on anyone else. We had a Christmas tree like everybody else did. One interesting thing happened. The brothers at St. Michaels Church, which was a block away from where we lived, would permit the boys to use the school yard for baseball, softball playing, provided we did their chores, including peeling potatoes and onions and filling the receptacles with holy water. The holy water was in a big barrel in the backyard and we would take little dippers and fill them full and go in and fill the receptacles in the church. My brother and I were the only two non-Catholics. Never entered our mind but one boy said, "Why should we keep running back and forth? Why don't we take the water out of the water trough in the front?" which was the water trough for the horses. We filled the receptacles with the water from the water trough instead of the blessed water from the barrel. We didn't know any better. But it bothered my brother, and he told my father. My father, atheist though he was, took my brother by the ear to the church. And he got ahold of- I don't know why I remember the name, the priest was Father Marks. And he said, "Tell him your story." And my brother did. All these kids were called in and they were really severely punished. My brother, who was thereafter ostracized -he was a stool pigeon. (laughter) Q: I'll be darned. ;,.. • ... i" Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 11 A: Well it bothered him that we did that. And it bothered my father too even though he didn't believe in that religion or any other religion. He was a man of principle even if ~u didn't agree with him. That enough? I don't know of anything else to talk about. Q: Did you mother generally follow your father's atheism, or was she churchgoing? I A: She didn't go to church but she was deeply religious, down underneath. The only conc~s-sion she got from him was that there was no pork allowed in the house. Q: Oh is that right? A: That was the one concession she insisted upon and he acquiesced. She used to confide in me that she was still religious. And she prayed and so forth but as far as I know never went to any synagogue or any temple. A: How did it come that you went to Mass, instead of going to a synagogue? Or did you go to both? A: No I didn't go to a synagogue, I didn't even know what it was. Went to Mass because the kids went to Mass. I knelt when they knelt, I didn't know why, but I did it, my brother did it. And my family had no objections. I do remember one time one woman got up right in the middle of the church and ordered me out. And I didn't understand what she was upset about, she was pointing at me, "Get out of here! Get out of here!" Of course I didn't pay any attention to her. Later on it dawned on me, she knew I was Jewish and then probably thought I was being sacrilegious or something, and trying to make me leave instead of trying to make a convert out of me. (laughter) Q: What about the fathers? Did they encourage you to go to catechism or that sort of thing? A: No. Not one ever approached and nobody ever objected. They just took it in stride. Q: What about the economic level of the community. Was it lower class or middle class or ... A: Well they were working people, many of them in the trades. Carpenters, electricians and . . . even a couple of taxi drivers that I can think of. And . . . I just can't think of anything else other than they were average working people. Some were rather poor. I remember some women coming in on Sunday morning after church asking my mother if they could have the coffee grounds out of our coffee pot. Which she of course readily gave them. From which I assume they made watered down coffee. But in the main they \\«lre people who were working, getting along reasonably well. Q: Where were they working? Generally in the same area or did they commute to other areas? A: I really don't know. Example cited. They went out on jobs wherever the job was. Q: Was there any particular industry in the vicinity? A: No. ! Q: What about social life? You've indicated the periodic picnics and that sortl of thing. Was there other types of activity that you engaged in or your family engaged in? A: Well that was principally what we engaged in because that's where my father's acti ity was. But there were many other things. Lincoln Park, which was within walking dist nee Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 12 of where we lived, had band concerts on Wednesday evening and Sunday afternoon. I didn't mind the Wednesday order to go to the concert, I did object to Sunday because that's when I wanted to play ball. But my father insisted that we go to those concerts. Because he said that learning about music and enjoying music was a very important part of a person's life. I'm very grateful to him because he forced me to go to these concerts because I became a great lover of music. Except rock and roll. But everything else I love from opera down and up again. And I attribute it to the fact that he pounded it into us. Q: Did you have musical training on any instrument? A: Well we had a teacher come every Sunday morning. I don't know where they got the fifty cents to pay him but they paid him fifty cents to teach my older brother and me violin and to improve our German. The German instruction came first and that he gave us together. Then he took my older brother for the violin instruction and I sneaked out the back door to the baseball field. So my older brother learned to play the violin, I never did. I learned to play baseball. (laughter) Q: What was your younger brother doing at that time? A: I guess he was sitting around watching. Q: Watching, I see. (chuckles) Was there any theater in the area that you .. A: Oh I - I forgot completely. My father, as one of his jobs, he managed the German theater at Chicago. Bush Temple. It was Bush Temple Conservatory. The building still stands, I don't know whether the theater's still there. That's at Chicago Avenue and Clark Street. And he managed that German theater there for several years. Q: What kind of productions would they have? A: They had a stock company that put on plays, generally light operettas. One that sticks out in my mind is Der Fledermaus, which in German is "The Bat." And he managed the theater and did fairly well. Q: Did you attend many of the . . . A: Oh I was -yes I was there regularly. Q: Did you get involved with the management or the working of the theater, usher or anything? A: No but strangely enough I later became a member of the stagehands union. At the age of fifteen. Q: How did that come about? A: Well one of my friends in high school who was older than I and had evidently stayed out of high school for two years was a great baseball player and we became great friends. I went to call on him on Labor Day, the day before school was to recommence, for a last day to play ball and his mother said, "Well don't you know he starts to work today." And I said, "Work at what?" She said, "Well he's an electrician at the Garrick Theater." Which was then at Randolph Street right off of Clark. And she said, "Why don't you go in, he's still in bed." So I went in and I said, "What's this?" He says, "Well my father is the head electrician at the Garrick Theater and I'm going· to be an assistant electrician there. Would you like i l' 11'' Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield ... 13 a job?" And I said, "Why not? What kind of a job?" He said, "Property boy." And said, "I think I can get you on." I went down with him and they put me to work. I called up home between the matinee and the evening show, it was a Labor Day matinee, and told my mother and she said, "You come right home." (chuckles) And I said, "No I can't do it. I got a job that pays me seventy-five cents a show. That's $6.75 a week, nine shows." I said, "We can use that." Well she - "I'll talk to you when you get home." She was afraid that the theater was maybe too rough for a young fifteen-yearold boy. But I stayed there through high school and law school. Q: Was this working in the evening? A: In the evenings, with Wednesday and Saturday matinees. So I continued on as a stagehand and ... finally worked up to five dollars a show. So when I started to practice law for my uncle whom I mentioned earlier he paid me five dollars a week, and I was making forty-five dollars a week in the theater. I turned that money over to my mother and she used it to pay my older brother's schooling in the Walton School of Accounting, and he became a CPA [Certified Public Accountant]. Q: What did a stagehand do in those days? A: There were three divisions. There's the property division where I worked, and that handled the personal articles like tables, chairs, hanging of mirrors, sweeping the stage and things of that nature. And then there was another branch which was the carpenter division, they handled the scenery. Then the electrical -division which handled the lights, the spotlights and so forth. So it was very interesting. I could write a book on my experiences in the theater. Q: What were some of those experiences? Did you meet some of the artists of the day? A: I'm just afraid if I got on in that field it would take six or seven volumes, becau~ I met them all. John Barrymore and his sister, Ethel Barrymore, and brother, Liqnel Barrymore. Eddy Cantor. Al Jolson. Ed Winn. Fanny Brice. Name them and tltey were there. And I could tell stories about most of them. Q: Well. What would be a most interesting story about those people? A: I think the most interesting but it'd take me ... I don't want to dwell too much on this because you know my feelings about developing this from a personal standpoint. Very frankly, you can edit this out if you want to. I don't think anybody's going to be interested in my childhood or my activities - I can't take myself that seriously. But there was. an experience that I think might be of interest. There was a play called "The Affairs of Anatol" at the Fine Arts Theater on Michigan Avenue. John Barrymore starred in it. It was a play which began with a man-about-town sitting at an outdoor cafe with a very young girl, telling her of his escapades, and getting drunk while he's talking to her. Now just bear that in mind because this particular day Barrymore didn't show up. And the people were getting very restless. The audience was applauding. The stage manager went out three, four times and said, "Mr. Barrymore will be here shortly. He is slightly indisposed." Of course everybody knew he was a complete drunk. About an hour later he came in staggering. He had a handkerchief wrapped around his finger and whimpering, "I cut my finger." His wife, his first wife who was a sout®rn belle, met him on the stage and she ripped that handkerchief off his finger and it wasn't cut. And she said, "You get in there and get ready to perform." So he staggered into his dressing room. · Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 14 We had to prop him up in the chair. We used ginger ale in place of champagne, and he was filling one glass after another, acting like a sober man getting drunk. Bear in mind he was already really very drunk. We all punched holes into the curtain to watch to see what was going to happen. The whole curtain was lined up with the stagehands peeking through, expecting him to fall on his face. This drunken man gave a performance of a sober man getting drunk that was remarkable. He never missed a syllable, a word, a period, a pause or anything. He delivered the most remarkable theatrical performance I ever saw in my life. It was so great that the audience forgot all about the delay of an hour and a half and gave him a standing ovation. When the curtain went down then we had to carry him off, he was a rag. We had to delay the next scene for a few minutes and then he went on and he went through the entire play, never missed a line or a word! Drunk all the time he was performing. That was the most remarkable theatrical performance I ever witnessed. So that's the standout. I always laughingly say that I had a speaking acquaintance with John Barrymore. Christmas matinee he came by where I was getting props ready, and I said, "Merry Christmas, Mr. Barrymore." And he says, "Merry Christmas, hell. What kind of a Christmas is it when you have to work?" And he walked on. So I was on speaking terms with him. (laughter) So that's going to end the episodes in the theater although there were many. Q: Yes sir. How about the labor situation there. Was the labor organized when you joined the force in the theater? A: Yes they were well organized. The stagehands union was once a part of the motion picture operators union, but they separated. The electrical department and the carpenter department was organized. The property department that I was working in was not organized but they were beginning to organize and then I got what was really an apprentice membership. We were called "clearers" because our job was to clear the stage of the small articles, chairs, sofas, tables and so on. And then later on we were taken into the union. They were well organized. Had a very strong union. Q: Were there any confrontations that came up with management? Between the unions and ... A: The only one that came up turned out to be a fraud, which was after I already had left the work in the theater. Several people went to jail. They pulled a strike on the moving picture studios. The stagehands union cooperated, and it was a complete shakedown. We had a business agent here, who was in charge of the union, by the name of Brown that I knew intimately from working with him, and when I read about a possible strike being called I very naively called Brown on the phone. Said, "You know I owe a debt of gratitude to the union. I could probably not have gone either through high school or law school without the money I earned in the theatre and I want to repay that debt partially by doing what I can. I want to offer my services as an attorney should you need it." I can hear his words yet, he said, "That's damn decent of you. I'll tell that to the boys. We don't have a lawyer, we hire them on the hoof." The words have stayed with me all those years. I never heard from him. And then I learned later of course that they didn't need a lawyer, they needed a guardian angel because they went to jail eventually. Q: And then you say it was a shakedown. What- what ... A: They were trying to get concessions from the moving picture studios. I don't know exactly what they were after but it did cost the moving picture producers heavily. • Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 15 And it was long after they had paid that the scandal broke. And there .was a man named Bio:ff as I recall who was the leader. He went to jail also. But this was long after the studios paid the shakedown money, ran into hundreds of thousands of dollars. But that was the closest - in answer to your question - the closest that we came to any labor strife. A: And that was after you had left. Q: Yes. In those days we had about sixteen legitimate theaters in Chicago's Loop, and there were a lot of people employed. And then the moving picture theaters, like the Chicago Theater, the State and Lake and the Marlbro and the Granada and so forth started putting on stage shows. So the stagehands expanded into those. SESSION 1, TAPE 2, SIDE 1 Q: What do you remember of your high school days? A: Oh I remember a lot of things that- it would take me days to tell. Q: What school did you go to? A: It was - originally North Division, was changed to Waller High School just shortly before I got there. It was recently changed again, to Lincoln Park High School. Q: Do your remember any particular teachers that were influential in your ... A: Well we had a principal by the name of Westcott, Oliver Westcott, who was a dynaptic person. Really should have been president of a university. He was in my opinion that capable. He retired because of age. He was succeeded by a man named Adams, who was strictly a political appointee. Nice enough guy but certainly didn't have the ability to run a high school. Well I remember a Mrs. McLean, who taught mathematics and was head of the Lite11ary Society. She got angry with me because, as its captain, I called the baseball tttam together, and said, "You're going either to be baseball players or actors, you can't be both." The school was small and we didn't have enough to go around. Since she was calling rehearsals and I was calling practice, there was a constant conflict. So the word got to :her and she sent somebody to tell me to come and see her. And I said, "She wants to see me, she knows where I am." And she came. (laughter) And we became very good friEmds after that. (chuckles) But I guess I had my father's independent spirit. (laughter) Q: Who won out in that case? A: Neither one of us, we just agreed to schedule practice and rehearsals at different times. And the long and short of it was I became president of the Literary Society. Q: Oh is that right. (laughter) Were you manager of the baseball . . . A: I was the manager. They called us captain in those days. Manager was the one that took care of the business, arranging schedules and so on. I remember one incident. We were invited to play in one of the suburbs, and it was a big deal for boys to go to the suburbs, it was like going to Europe. But we were advised that if we had a black player on our team not to bring him. And we did have. And I caJled the team together and I said, "We're not going." And they were - oh they were ery upset. And they ... I said, "We have a team, and we aren't going to separate it." So |
Collection Name | Oral History Collection of the University of Illinois at Springfield |