Saltiel, Edward P. - Interview and Memoir

              University of Illinois at Springfield
Norris L Brookens Library
Archives/Special Collections
Edward P. Saltiel Memoir
SA37. Saltiel, Edward P. (1897-1990)
Interview and memoir
17 tapes, 860 mins., 175 pp., plus index
ILLINOIS GENERAL ASSEMBLY ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
Saltiel, Republican member of the Illinois House of Representatives 1935-45 and
the Illinois Senate 1947-55, discusses his years in the General Assembly:
legislation involving the Chicago Crime Commission, unemployment
compensation, public utilities and railroads, and health, education, and judiciary
legislation. Also discusses his years before the legislature: law school, law
practice, running for a judicial position on the Socialist ticket, and politics and
life in Chicago. He also recalls his more recent work with judicial reform and the
United Nations Commission on Migration.
Interview by Horace Q. Waggoner, 1982
OPEN
See collateral file: interviewer's notes and photocopies of photographs.
Archives/Special Collections LIB 144
University of Illinois at Springfield
One University Plaza, MS BRK 140
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© 1982, University of Illinois Board of Trustees
Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield
ILLINOIS GENERAL ASSEMBLY
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
PREVIOUS TITLES IN SERIES
Martin B. Lohmann Memoir, 1 Vol. (1980)
Bernice T. VanDer Vries Memoir, 3 Vols. (1980)
Walter J. Reum Memoir, 2 Vols. (1980)
Thomas A. McGloon Memoir, 2 Vols. (1981)
John W. Fribley Memoir, 2 Vols. (1981)
Charles W. Clabaugh Memoir, 2 Vols. (1982)
Cecil A. Partee Memoir, 2 Vols. (1982)
Elbert S. Smith Memoir, 2 Vols. (1982)
Frances L. Dawson Memoir, 2 Vols. (1982)
Robert W. McCarthy Memoir, 2 Vols. (1983)
John C. Parkhurst Memoir, 2 Vols. (1984)
Corneal A. Davis Memoir, 2 Vols. (1984)
Cumulative Index, 1980-1984
.t.l
Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield
EDWARD P. SALTIEL
ILLINOIS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 1935-1945
ILLINOIS SENATE, 1947-1955
Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield
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Preface
This oral history of Edward P. Saltiel's service in the Illinois General Assembly is a product
of the Illinois Legislative Research Unit's General Assembly Oral History Program. The
oral history technique adds a distinctive new dimension to the unit's statutory responsibility
for performing research and collecting information concerning the government of the state.
Edward P. Saltiel was born in Chicago, Illinois, January 8, 1897. At an early age, he moved
with his family to Wisconsin where his father, an ardent Socialist, was assigned to improve
the lot of Socialist newspapers, first in Sheboygan and then in Milwaukee. In his
reminiscenses of this period of his life, he recalls the association of his father with Socialist
leader Eugene Debs.
After some four years in Wisconsin, the family returned to Chicago where Mr. Saltiel com­pleted
his education. While attending the John Marshall School of Law, he worked as a
stagehand in the Chicago Loop. His recounting of his experiences during this work are most
interesting as are his descriptions of life in Chicago during the first quarter of this
century. Upon graduation from law school in 1918 he launched upon his lifetime practice
of law in Chicago. In 1922, he married Lillian Wolf.
Mr. Saltiel's only major involvement in politics prior to the 1930's was an unsuccessful bid
for judgeship on the Socialist ticket in 1921. Ten years later, in 1931, he became a Repub­lican
precinct captain in support of William Thompson's unsuccessful try to regain the
Chicago mayorship. Finding an interest in political office, he ran for the state house of
representatives in 1932 only to once again fail to find success. Undeterred, he tried again
in 1934 and won, retaining the seat until 1944 when he ran unsuccessfully for the state
senate. Two years later, with the interim filled with support of the Illinois-Michigan Canal
Commission as part of his ongoing law practice, another try for the senate seat proved suc­cessful
and he served there until 1954.
Mr. Saltiel's major legislative interests were in the fields of health, education and
judiciary. A major achievement was the introduction of laws requiring premarital physical
examinations. In education, he was particularly concerned with laws pertaining to the oper­ation
of schools. His activities in support of judicial reform continued after he left the legis­lature.
Readers of this oral history should bear in mind that it is a transcript of the spoken
word. Its informal conversational style represents a deliberate attempt to encourage candor
and to tap the narrator's memory. However persons interested in listening to the hwes
should understand that editorial considerations produced a text that differs somewhat from
the original recordings. Both the recordings and this transcript should be regarded as a
v
Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield
primary historical source as no effort was made to correct or challenge the
narrator. Neither the Illinois Legislative Research Unit nor Sangamon State University is
responsible for the factual accuracy of the memoir, nor for the views expressed therein; these
are for the reader to judge.
The tape recorded interviews were conducted by Horace Waggoner during the spring of
1982. Mr. Waggoner was born in 1924 in Waggoner, a small farm-service community in cen­tral
Illinois. At age 18, he enlisted for military service in World War II and, as a U. S.
Air Force commissioned officer, continued to serve until 1973. Upon leaving service, he
resumed his formal education, achieving a masters degree in history at Sangamon State Uni­versity
in 1975. His association with the Sangamon State University Oral History Office
dates from 1976.
Betty Lewis and Pat Grider transcribed the tapes. After the transcriptions were reviewed
by Mr. Saltiel and edited by Horace Waggoner, Julie Allen prepared the
typescript. Florence Hardin compiled the index. The Chicago Tribune provided valuable
assistance in the research effort.
This oral history may be read, quoted and cited freely. It may not be reproduced in whole
or in part by any means, electronic or mechanical, without written permission from the Illi­nois
Legislative Research Unit, Room 107, Stratton Building, Springfield, Illinois, 62706.
vi
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Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield
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Table of Contents
Preface .................................................................................................................................................. v
The Years Before ................................................................................................................................ 1
Family background - Wisconsin interlude - Grade school - High school
- Semi-pro baseball - John Marshall School of Law - Stagehand work -
Courtship and marriage - Knights of Pythias - Law practice - Life in
Chicago- Socialist candidate - Chicago politics (1920's-1930's)
The General Assembly Years ........................................................................................................... 50
Campaigning- Election to house- Getting started- Pre-marriage exami-
.. nation bill - Broyle's bills - Lobbyists - Relief legislation - Sales tax -
Unemployment compensation - Legislative Council - Legislative Refer­ence
Bureau - Appropriations - Budgetary Commission - Conservation
legislation -Judicial reform - Gateway amendment- Revenue legislation
- Education legislation - Election to senate - Chicago Crime Commission
bills - Illinois-Michigan Canal Commission Transportation legislation -
Real estate legislation - Public Utilities and Railroads Committee - Civil
Service Advisory Committee - Fair Employment Practices Commission
- City charter bill - Hay fever bill - Reapportionment - Leaving the legis­lature
The Years After .................................................................................................................................. 158
Judicial reform - United Nations Commission on migration between
nations - Guidance for person considering going to legislature
Index...................................................................................................................................................... 170
Illustrations following page 83.
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Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield
Edward P. Sal tiel
SESSION 1, TAPE 1, SIDE 1
Q: When were you born?
A: January 8, 1897.
Q: And where were you born?
A: Chicago, Illinois.
Q: What part of Chicago?
A: On the north side. To be accurate, Orchard and North Avenue.
Q: What was your father's name?
A: Robert.
Q: Where had the Saltiel's come from? How long had they been in Chicago?
A: Oh about a hundred years. They originally are of Spanish-Portugal origin. But w.-..en
the Jews were driven out of Spain, some - what? five hundred years ago or so, they ~all
went into different directions and my father's family wound up in Holland. And entrusted
to the Holland government all of their assets, which I understand was substantial, but they
never were able to recoup them.
Q: I'll be darned.
A: Then my father's parents moved to England. And they became English citizens. My
father was actually born in two places. His father was amateur chess champion of Europe
and he was on a tour with his pregnant wife, and they miscalculated, and the child was
about to be born in Barcelona, Spain, when they had expected it wouldn't arrive until they
got back to England. Spain had compulsory military service and they were worried t~at
perhaps they wouldn't allow a male child, if it was a male child, to leave the country becapse
he'd be a Spanish citizen. Whether that was good thinking or not I don't know, but at ~ny
rate they had enough influence to have the English embassy take over the hotel bedroom, ut
the English flag up, make that bedroom part of the British embassy, or Bri ish
consulate. And so when my father was born he was born on English soil althoug in
Barcelona, Spain.
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So when he came over here - see he was born in 1865, I guess he got here about 1880. I
think he was about fifteen years old when he got here. He swore off allegiance to the King
of England at that time with no mention of his physical birth in Spain. So, that's about
the most interesting chapter of my family that I can give you. (chuckles)
Q: What part of England did they live?
A: All I ever remember was they mentioned Middlesex County. I don't know where that
is, I think it's somewhere outside of London.
Q: Did you know your grandfather by any chance?
A: No I didn't know either of my grandfathers. My mother's father never got here. My
father's father died here in Chicago before I was born. My mother's mother died before
I was born, she's buried here. And my father's mother is also buried in Chicago. I knew
her. So out of the four grandparents, I met one.
Q: Do you remember much about your Grandmother Sal tiel?
A: I only remember one thing, that she was a very stately lady, very dignified. Very prim
and proper. But most importantly she always carried what we would today call a shopping
bag into which we kids would dive for the goodies she brought us. So that's my principle
recollection. (laughter)
Q: Did she live with your family?
A: She lived with my father's brother who was a lawyer here in Chicago.
Q: How many brothers and sisters did your father have?
A: My father had one brother.
Q: What was his name?
A: Leopold Saltiel.
Q: And he was a lawyer . . .
A: He was a lawyer here in Chicago.
Q: Had he received his education in the United States?
A: He received his . . . what was equivalent to high school in Vienna. The family went
eventually from London to Vienna, where my father got his early education also. But then
he came here and finished his education here. I'm talking now about my uncle.
Q: Do you know what school he went to here?
A: Lake Forest . . . was the name of the law school. I'm not sure if it's connected with
Lake Forest College or not.
Q: What kind of law was he involved with? Do you recall?
A: General, general practice. In his days there were no real specialists. In fact in my day
either, until now. So he handled everything. I don't think he did much in the criminal
field.
...
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Q: Did your father say much about the old country, either England or Vienna, in your talk­ing
with him?
A: No he just talked mainly about what the German people always liked to refer to as
"gemietlichkeit," if you know what that means. I guess the best way to define it would be
enjoying life. Meeting people and enjoying them and participating in music and arts and
so forth.
Q: Did he ever indicate he might like to go back to Vienna?
A: Oh no. No. He was very happy here. But he was a rabid Socialist and one of the
organizers of the Nationalist Socialist party.
Q: Oh is that right.
A: Yes. Very close friend of Eugene V. Debs of whom you've probably heard.
Q: Yes. Did you discuss that with him, as to how he became Socialist inclined?
A: Well I never discussed it with him. I just recognized the fact that he was interested
in the working people and the poor people who, in his opinion, were being ground underfoot
by the profit motive of the capitalistic system. And it was his idea that under socialism
everybody would be given the rights that he felt a human being was entitled to. Completely
altruistic and somewhat theoretical but motivated by the best of spirit.
Q: Was he in Socialist organizations here in the Chicago area?
A: Well he belonged to the Socialist party here. He edited the German newspaper that was
published by the Socialist party. At one time when we were in Wisconsin ... we moved
first to Sheboygan, Wisconsin, and there he was editor of the Socialist paper there. Then
we moved to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, where he edited another paper. Socialist party at ~hat
time had newspapers in various parts of the country. And whenever one of them'd start
bogging down he was the troubleshooter. They'd send him there to try to build the paper
up. So ... and he wound up running for lieutenant governor of Wisconsin on the Socialist
ticket.
Q: Oh. Well. About what year was that? Do you recall?
A: Oh, 1902, 1903, somewhere in there.
Q: You weren't very old at that time then?
A: I think I was about five years old.
Q: Do you recall anything about that?
A: I remember a lot - oh I could tell incidents - the lore of some of the things - but
the one that always stuck in my memory was Bob La Follette was running for governor
on the Republican ticket and he met my father at a railroad station. And he said to
him, "You know, truth be known, I'm a Socialist at heart myself." And my father
said, "Do you want a party application? I'd be glad to give it to you." (laughter)
Q: I don't suppose that was followed through on though?
A: No. They both got a laugh out of it.
Q: .Where did your father go to school here in the United States?
cation?
I'
I
Did he continue his tdu-
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A: No he did not. He was self-educated and believe it or not he wound up speaking and
writing and reading six languages.
Q: Six languages, my goodness.
A: He was an extremely well-read man. In my opinion far better educated than those who
sleep through college, because he got his education because he wanted it. He was a very
brilliant man but he couldn't make a living. He was out of work more than he was in
work. (chuckles)
Q: What occupation other than the newspaper was he ...
A: Principally in the newspaper field. At one time when we were in Wisconsin he was an
organizer for the brewers' union. But that was I think for a short period. But his principal
work was in the newspaper field but - his last job was with the Chicago Abend Post
here, which of course is a !!apitalistic newspaper but ... he quit there because they wanted
him to write editorials that went against his beliefs and he wouldn't write them.
Q: I'll be darned.
A: So I don't know whether he quit or it was by mutual consent. (laughter)
Q: How about your mother. What was her name?
A: My mother's maiden name was Arnstein. She was born in what is now
Czechoslovakia. It was then part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
Q: When did she come to the United States?
A: Well she must have come around the same time my father did because they got
married . . . I think they married in 1887, or somewhere in there. Somewhere I have a
wedding invitation. I noticed that in some of these you have pictures and maybe that would
be an interesting reproduction.
Q: Yes sir. What was her given name?
A: Bertha.
\
Q: Bertha. Do you recall her talking much about the Austro-Hungarian Empire?
A: No. No, they - her parents evidently had a little general store in a city some thirty
miles out of Prague. (pause) I always laugh because she was very straight-laced. The
closest thing I ever heard her say that could be characterized as risque was that her father
was seventy-five years old when she was born, but that because the town was so small
everybody knew that he had to be the father. (laughter)
Q: Well. And what's her educational experience?
A: I don't think she had anything more than perhaps high school.
Q: And was that in the old country?
A: Yes and I couldn't think of the word before but they were called "gymnasiums."
Q: Oh I see.
A: Yes. That's equivalent of high school here. I think both she and my father had that
gymnasium education. ·
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Q: Do you know why she came to the United States?
A: Oh I guess the whole family came over to better themselves.
Q: And did they come to Chicago directly?
A: All but one sister who wound up in New York. And she had two sisters here, and a
brother. They were all here.
Q: I see. So there were three sisters altogether.
A: Yes.
Q: Did you get to know any of those, your uncles or aunts?
A: I knew them all except the one in New York. I only knew her by correspondence. ·
Q: What ~id her brother do?
A: Her brother was in the insurance business. Quite successful.
Q: Was she sympathetic to your father's Socialist views?
A: She wasn't sympathetic to - anything that my father had as views, she simply was
under his thumb, and whatever he said she did. (laughter)
Q: Which was the disciplinarian in the family, your mother or your father?
A: My father.
Q: What kind of disciplinarian was he? Was he pretty strict?
A: Well he was strict in the sense that he overawed us by his directions. There was never
any physical punishment from either mother or father. It was entirely - he was in charge
and you knew it that's all.
Q: You remember the home in which you were born here in Chicago?
A: Not from the time I lived there but subsequently when I ran for reelection to the senJlte
the area where I was born had changed so materially that I could no longer make cap~tal
of the fact that I was born in the district. Because that meant nothing to the people ""ho
had moved into what was once a solid German neighborhood.
I decided to go over and have a picture taken of the house that I was born in and publicize
that in the local papers. I had a client in the lamp manufacturing business, and I had him
bring lamps along and we went over and rang the doorbell and a gypsy answered the
doorbell. And she said, "What the hell do you want?" (chuckles) So I tried to expla.in
what I wanted. And I heard a voice come out of the bedroom that I know I was b4>rn
in, because there was only one bedroom. He said, "Get out of here, don't bother us."
At any rate I prevailed upon them to, in exchange for a few lamps and a twenty do lar
bill, to allow me to be photographed with the woman in front of the house. Which I t en
used in my political campaign. I have no recollection of it other than that visit.
Q: I'll be darned. Well then your family had moved then to Wisconsin was it at that tim ?
Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield
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A: When my father was assigned to the newspaper in Sheboygan we went there. And subse­quently
they assigned him to Milwaukee and we went there. Then they assigned him back
to Chicago and we came back here.
Q: How long a tour was that? How many years were involved?
A: (pause) I would say about four.
Q: About four years.
A: Four years.
Q: You weren't in school yet by the time .
A: Oh, yes I was in school. I have some of my Sheboygan and Milwaukee report cards
among my souvenirs.
Q: Oh you do.
A: Yes.
Q: So you started to school then in Sheboygan?
A: Yes.
Q: What do you recall of the home in Sheboygan?
A: Well, I don't want to get into long discussions but I guess there's no way of avoiding
it. Because there was an incident there that, I think, bears retelling. We lived on the
second floor of a building that housed the printing establishment that printed the
paper. This building was owned by a man named Born, who was a wealthy man. Owned
a park there that was known as Born's Park, an amusement park. And also bottled mineral
water which he sold. Decided he wanted to be mayor of the city as a Socialist and my father
ran his campaign. And he was elected. It didn't take long he was about to turn over the
city waterworks to private enterprise directly in contradiction to his alleged socialistic
beliefs. And my father rebelled and it turned out to be quite a battle as he was in a position
to discontinue the printing of the newspaper.
And then I recall this quite vividly. He came to our home, came upstairs to our flat, and
he and my father went into the living room. And there was a sliding door separating that
room from what they used to call a sitting room. And all of a sudden the voices got louder
and louder and the door opened up and my father told Born to get out of our house as fast
as he could and never come back in again. When he left, rather hurriedly, we said, "What
happened?" He said, "He offered me this building in exchange for my stopping my fight
against the waterworks deal." I get emotional about it now because I recall that my father
fell into a dead faint. I can still see him lying there on the floor. With a little cold water
my mother revived him.
Then we set out on a crusade. Couldn't use the presses, but there was a handpress. And
my father wrote up a little circular and ran it off on a handpress. And my brother who
was two years older than I, I think I was five and he was seven, distributed those handbills
all over the city. And defeated the ordinance that was fostered by Mr. Born. Mr. Born
then, to retaliate, preferred charges against my father and the Socialist party with some
trumped up charges, I don't know what they were. And the party sent Eugene Debs in to
check on the story, as sort of an arbitrator. He heard all the evidence and found my father
was completely innocent and Born was excommunicated by the party. From then on Debs
and my father became very very close friends.
~-I
~ !.:
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And if I may throw in a little incident involving Debs that I think might be of interest. He
came with my father one afternoon to have dinner with us. My father had a bad habit
of inviting anybody that he met to dinner even though many times there wasn't enough to
feed the family. When they got there my father didn't have a key to - my mother was
out. So Debs - I can see him now - there was a gangway between our house and the
next house. Debs pried open the window and, in spite of his six foot five inches, he cra\\1led
in, opened the kitchen door and let my father in.
My mother came home and she was very angry because of the fact that we didn't have really
enough food to go around. She apologized to Debs. She said, "All we're having tonight
is lentil soup, and some potatoes and frankfurters cut in." - hot dogs today I guess - cut
up about the size of a quarter. So that if you're lucky you got one in your soup. I remem~
her it so vividly, Debs responded, "There were times when I rode the rods" - which he
did very frequently - "and I had nothing to eat. So if you just put a little water in, it'll
go around." So that's what she did. I don't know how much you know about Eugene V.
Debs.
Q: Very little actually.
A: In my opinion he was one of the greatest Americans that ever lived. He helped organize
the railroad brotherhoods. Went to jail as a matter of principle because of the fact that
he called the railroad strike. He opposed World War I as a capitalistic war and went to
jail a second time as a matter of principle. Ran for president on the Socialist ticket at least
four times. Marvelous orator. And I think recognized now, even by those who opposed him
if any are still living, as having been a great American, responsible for many of the reforms
that we take for granted today. And frankly my first vote for anybody was cast for Debs
for president.
Q: I'll be darned. Yes sir. Was your mother a good cook?
A: The best.
Q: Made do with little.
A: She could make do with nothing. (laughter) It wasn't always that way. My dad at
one time made as high as thirty~five dollars a week. Which in those days was a - probably
equivalent to two hundred dollars today. He was a good newspaperman. If he could only
keep his principles in his back pocket. (chuckles)
Q: I see. Yes sir. (chuckles) So you started to school then in Sheboygan?
A: Yes. I went to school in Sheboygan, went to school in Milwaukee. Then of course the
rest of my schooling was here in Chicago.
Q: What do you remember about the school in Sheboygan?
A: Nothing really.
Q: No occurrences or anything? No broken arms or anything at school?
A: Oh yes I remember one thing that - it has nothing to do with school. It had raiped
and we were playing in a puddle of water, using an old plank as a kind of a ship ojr a
boat, disregarding the fact that it had nails coming out from it and I slipped and sa~ on
it and wound up with the plank on my rearend on a trip to the hospital where they rem<>fed
them. So that's about all I remember. (laughter) 1
Q: Let's see now you have one older brother. What other brothers and sisters did you ha e?
Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield
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A: I had an older brother and a younger brother.
Q: What was your older brother's name?
A: David.
Q: David.
A: There's a tradition in our family, which I don't know the history of, that the oldest son
was given the first name of his grandfather. So the family alternated, and does to this
day, David Robert, Robert David. And so my father's name was Robert and my brother's
name was David, and then his oldest son was named Robert and his son is named David.
Q: I'll be darned.
A: He incidently became a lawyer a year ago. So the Saltiel legal activity will continue
in Chicago.
Q: Well, good. What was your younger brother's name?
A: Henry.
Q: Was he born there in Sheboygan?
A: No he was born in Chicago.
Q: How much younger was he than you?
A: He was two years younger than me.
Q: Two years between each . . .
A: Yes.
Q: . . . the three of you.
A: I think I was about five when we got to Sheboygan and he must have been three.
Q: Now why did you move on to Milwaukee then?
A: Because there was a Socialist German paper there that needed help. So the Socialist
party sent my father there to see if he could build it up.
Q: Do you recall any of the action that he took in building up that newspaper there? How
did he go about doing that?
A: I don't really know. I know he succeeded because they then sent him to Chicago to take
over a paper here.
Q: Were there any incidents such as with Mr. Born in Milwaukee?
A: Well I don't know whether you ever heard of Victor Berger. He was the son of a very
wealthy woman. Reputed to have the largest private library of anybody in the
country. And he was a Socialist, and my father decided that he ought to run for
Congress. Mrs. Berger was a multimillionaire and was very dead set against her son enter­ing
into politics.
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SESSION 1, TAPE 1, SIDE 2
A: But my father prevailed upon her to agree and Berger went to Congress.
Q: Oh. On the Socialist ...
A: Socialist ticket. I think the first Socialist that ever served in Congress. And one of the
interesting things that we used to laugh about was here was a man with a tremendously
large library, very well read and educated, got excited in Congress and yelled across the
chamber at a colleague a shaking fist, "I leave it to your conscience of which you ain't got
none." (chuckles) That stayed in the family for years. So, all of which I doubt is of any
interest to anybody. (laughter)
Q: Do you recall - by this time you were about seven or so - do you recall your father
discussing the issues of the· day as he saw it, by that time?
A: Oh yes he ran for alderman of the old Twenty-second Ward. Which is now incidently
the Forty-third where I live. We all believed he was elected. But of course we had no
pollwatchers and at the end of the counting he lost by a very few hundred votes. But he
made quite a campaign.
Q: About when was this?
A: Oh I can't - I can't fix the time. I think it was probably somewhere around 1909 or
1910.
Q: So you were about the end of your grade school years at that time.
A: Yes.
Q: Did you get involved in the campaign in any way?
A: No.
Q: Hand out literature or anything?
A: No. Oh yes, passing out handbills, yes sure, but that's all.
Q: Do you remember any particular issues that he was proposing at that time, or support­ing?
A: No it was just a general thought that the city wasn't doing right by the
downtrodden, poor people, the underprivileged. He, I assume, had some hopes of doing
something about it.
Q: Was that his only try for political office?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he seem particularly downtrodden after that concerning political office?
A: No. No he had no illusions. I don't think he expected to get as close to winning1 as
he did. It was a matter of principle with him, somebody had to carry the banner. He $r­~~
!
Q: What about school years in Milwaukee? Did you have any more boards in your tailen11
!
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A: No. I don't even remember if the boards were in Milwaukee or Sheboygan.
Q: I see. (laughter) Do you remember any of the teachers?
A: No. No. No I have no -no recollection at all of any of that early period.
Q: In your grade school years do you recall any reflection of your father's thinking in terms
of the treatment you received from the other students in school?
A: You mean was there any repercussion or something?
Q: Yes.
A: No. I don't think any of them even were aware of the fact that he ran. (pause) I don't
really know what year it was. I think it was somewhere around where I said. (pause) So
fire away.
Q: When you returned to Chicago was the area generally a large Socialist thinking com­munity?
A: Well I won't say that they were socialistic thinking but they were union people. Working
class neighborhood people. At that time the Socialist party, especially the German
membership, was pretty well organized socially. They had social clubs and they had
turnvereins. Turnvereins are the German gymnastic organizations. "Turners" they called
them because of the fact that they do handsprings and whatever. And verein means
society, so it was Society of Turners. And there were three or four of those on the North
Side and they had picnics and just brought people together. While they may not have even
understood the philosophy of Socialism, they enjoyed the fraternizing and the general effort
to better conditions, so when they had a chance to vote their convictions they did.
Q: Could you describe the community in which you were living then, after you came back
to Chicago? Now it was primarily ethnically German I guess.
A: It was 90 percent at least German. I think there were probably two other Jewish fam­ilies
there besides us. And I used to go to Mass with the kids and tip my hat to the brothers
and sisters the same as they did. My father was an outspoken aetheist but he never tried
to impose his thoughts on anyone else. We had a Christmas tree like everybody else did.
One interesting thing happened. The brothers at St. Michaels Church, which was a block
away from where we lived, would permit the boys to use the school yard for
baseball, softball playing, provided we did their chores, including peeling potatoes and
onions and filling the receptacles with holy water. The holy water was in a big barrel in
the backyard and we would take little dippers and fill them full and go in and fill the recep­tacles
in the church. My brother and I were the only two non-Catholics. Never entered
our mind but one boy said, "Why should we keep running back and forth? Why don't we
take the water out of the water trough in the front?" which was the water trough for the
horses. We filled the receptacles with the water from the water trough instead of the
blessed water from the barrel. We didn't know any better.
But it bothered my brother, and he told my father. My father, atheist though he was, took
my brother by the ear to the church. And he got ahold of- I don't know why I remember
the name, the priest was Father Marks. And he said, "Tell him your story." And my
brother did. All these kids were called in and they were really severely punished. My
brother, who was thereafter ostracized -he was a stool pigeon. (laughter)
Q: I'll be darned.
;,.. •
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Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield
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A: Well it bothered him that we did that. And it bothered my father too even though he
didn't believe in that religion or any other religion. He was a man of principle even if ~u
didn't agree with him. That enough? I don't know of anything else to talk about.
Q: Did you mother generally follow your father's atheism, or was she churchgoing?
I
A: She didn't go to church but she was deeply religious, down underneath. The only conc~s-sion
she got from him was that there was no pork allowed in the house.
Q: Oh is that right?
A: That was the one concession she insisted upon and he acquiesced. She used to confide
in me that she was still religious. And she prayed and so forth but as far as I know never
went to any synagogue or any temple.
A: How did it come that you went to Mass, instead of going to a synagogue? Or did you
go to both?
A: No I didn't go to a synagogue, I didn't even know what it was. Went to Mass because
the kids went to Mass. I knelt when they knelt, I didn't know why, but I did it, my brother
did it. And my family had no objections. I do remember one time one woman got up right
in the middle of the church and ordered me out. And I didn't understand what she was
upset about, she was pointing at me, "Get out of here! Get out of here!" Of course I didn't
pay any attention to her. Later on it dawned on me, she knew I was Jewish and then prob­ably
thought I was being sacrilegious or something, and trying to make me leave instead
of trying to make a convert out of me. (laughter)
Q: What about the fathers? Did they encourage you to go to catechism or that sort of
thing?
A: No. Not one ever approached and nobody ever objected. They just took it in stride.
Q: What about the economic level of the community. Was it lower class or middle class
or ...
A: Well they were working people, many of them in the trades. Carpenters, electricians
and . . . even a couple of taxi drivers that I can think of. And . . . I just can't think of
anything else other than they were average working people. Some were rather poor. I
remember some women coming in on Sunday morning after church asking my mother if they
could have the coffee grounds out of our coffee pot. Which she of course readily gave
them. From which I assume they made watered down coffee. But in the main they \\«lre
people who were working, getting along reasonably well.
Q: Where were they working? Generally in the same area or did they commute to other
areas?
A: I really don't know. Example cited. They went out on jobs wherever the job was.
Q: Was there any particular industry in the vicinity?
A: No.
!
Q: What about social life? You've indicated the periodic picnics and that sortl of
thing. Was there other types of activity that you engaged in or your family engaged in?
A: Well that was principally what we engaged in because that's where my father's acti ity
was. But there were many other things. Lincoln Park, which was within walking dist nee
Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield
12
of where we lived, had band concerts on Wednesday evening and Sunday afternoon. I didn't
mind the Wednesday order to go to the concert, I did object to Sunday because that's when
I wanted to play ball. But my father insisted that we go to those concerts. Because he
said that learning about music and enjoying music was a very important part of a person's
life. I'm very grateful to him because he forced me to go to these concerts because I became
a great lover of music. Except rock and roll. But everything else I love from opera down
and up again. And I attribute it to the fact that he pounded it into us.
Q: Did you have musical training on any instrument?
A: Well we had a teacher come every Sunday morning. I don't know where they got the
fifty cents to pay him but they paid him fifty cents to teach my older brother and me violin
and to improve our German. The German instruction came first and that he gave us
together. Then he took my older brother for the violin instruction and I sneaked out the
back door to the baseball field. So my older brother learned to play the violin, I never
did. I learned to play baseball. (laughter)
Q: What was your younger brother doing at that time?
A: I guess he was sitting around watching.
Q: Watching, I see. (chuckles) Was there any theater in the area that you ..
A: Oh I - I forgot completely. My father, as one of his jobs, he managed the German the­ater
at Chicago. Bush Temple. It was Bush Temple Conservatory. The building still
stands, I don't know whether the theater's still there. That's at Chicago Avenue and Clark
Street. And he managed that German theater there for several years.
Q: What kind of productions would they have?
A: They had a stock company that put on plays, generally light operettas. One that sticks
out in my mind is Der Fledermaus, which in German is "The Bat." And he managed the
theater and did fairly well.
Q: Did you attend many of the . . .
A: Oh I was -yes I was there regularly.
Q: Did you get involved with the management or the working of the theater, usher or any­thing?
A: No but strangely enough I later became a member of the stagehands union. At the age
of fifteen.
Q: How did that come about?
A: Well one of my friends in high school who was older than I and had evidently stayed
out of high school for two years was a great baseball player and we became great friends. I
went to call on him on Labor Day, the day before school was to recommence, for a last day
to play ball and his mother said, "Well don't you know he starts to work today." And I
said, "Work at what?" She said, "Well he's an electrician at the Garrick Theater." Which
was then at Randolph Street right off of Clark. And she said, "Why don't you go in, he's
still in bed."
So I went in and I said, "What's this?" He says, "Well my father is the head electrician
at the Garrick Theater and I'm going· to be an assistant electrician there. Would you like
i l'
11''
Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield
...
13
a job?" And I said, "Why not? What kind of a job?" He said, "Property boy." And
said, "I think I can get you on." I went down with him and they put me to work.
I called up home between the matinee and the evening show, it was a Labor Day
matinee, and told my mother and she said, "You come right home." (chuckles) And I
said, "No I can't do it. I got a job that pays me seventy-five cents a show. That's $6.75
a week, nine shows." I said, "We can use that." Well she - "I'll talk to you when you
get home." She was afraid that the theater was maybe too rough for a young fifteen-year­old
boy.
But I stayed there through high school and law school.
Q: Was this working in the evening?
A: In the evenings, with Wednesday and Saturday matinees. So I continued on as a stage­hand
and ... finally worked up to five dollars a show. So when I started to practice law
for my uncle whom I mentioned earlier he paid me five dollars a week, and I was making
forty-five dollars a week in the theater. I turned that money over to my mother and she
used it to pay my older brother's schooling in the Walton School of Accounting, and he
became a CPA [Certified Public Accountant].
Q: What did a stagehand do in those days?
A: There were three divisions. There's the property division where I worked, and that
handled the personal articles like tables, chairs, hanging of mirrors, sweeping the stage and
things of that nature. And then there was another branch which was the carpenter
division, they handled the scenery. Then the electrical -division which handled the
lights, the spotlights and so forth. So it was very interesting. I could write a book on my
experiences in the theater.
Q: What were some of those experiences? Did you meet some of the artists of the day?
A: I'm just afraid if I got on in that field it would take six or seven volumes, becau~ I
met them all. John Barrymore and his sister, Ethel Barrymore, and brother, Liqnel
Barrymore. Eddy Cantor. Al Jolson. Ed Winn. Fanny Brice. Name them and tltey
were there. And I could tell stories about most of them.
Q: Well. What would be a most interesting story about those people?
A: I think the most interesting but it'd take me ... I don't want to dwell too much on
this because you know my feelings about developing this from a personal standpoint. Very
frankly, you can edit this out if you want to. I don't think anybody's going to be interested
in my childhood or my activities - I can't take myself that seriously. But there was. an
experience that I think might be of interest. There was a play called "The Affairs of
Anatol" at the Fine Arts Theater on Michigan Avenue. John Barrymore starred in it. It
was a play which began with a man-about-town sitting at an outdoor cafe with a very young
girl, telling her of his escapades, and getting drunk while he's talking to her. Now just
bear that in mind because this particular day Barrymore didn't show up. And the people
were getting very restless. The audience was applauding. The stage manager went out
three, four times and said, "Mr. Barrymore will be here shortly. He is slightly
indisposed." Of course everybody knew he was a complete drunk.
About an hour later he came in staggering. He had a handkerchief wrapped around his
finger and whimpering, "I cut my finger." His wife, his first wife who was a sout®rn
belle, met him on the stage and she ripped that handkerchief off his finger and it wasn't
cut. And she said, "You get in there and get ready to perform." So he staggered into his
dressing room. ·
Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield
14
We had to prop him up in the chair. We used ginger ale in place of champagne, and he
was filling one glass after another, acting like a sober man getting drunk. Bear in mind
he was already really very drunk. We all punched holes into the curtain to watch to see
what was going to happen. The whole curtain was lined up with the stagehands peeking
through, expecting him to fall on his face.
This drunken man gave a performance of a sober man getting drunk that was
remarkable. He never missed a syllable, a word, a period, a pause or anything. He deliv­ered
the most remarkable theatrical performance I ever saw in my life. It was so great
that the audience forgot all about the delay of an hour and a half and gave him a standing
ovation. When the curtain went down then we had to carry him off, he was a rag. We
had to delay the next scene for a few minutes and then he went on and he went through
the entire play, never missed a line or a word! Drunk all the time he was
performing. That was the most remarkable theatrical performance I ever witnessed. So
that's the standout.
I always laughingly say that I had a speaking acquaintance with John
Barrymore. Christmas matinee he came by where I was getting props ready, and I
said, "Merry Christmas, Mr. Barrymore." And he says, "Merry Christmas, hell. What
kind of a Christmas is it when you have to work?" And he walked on. So I was on speak­ing
terms with him. (laughter) So that's going to end the episodes in the theater although
there were many.
Q: Yes sir. How about the labor situation there. Was the labor organized when you joined
the force in the theater?
A: Yes they were well organized. The stagehands union was once a part of the motion pic­ture
operators union, but they separated. The electrical department and the carpenter
department was organized. The property department that I was working in was not organ­ized
but they were beginning to organize and then I got what was really an apprentice
membership. We were called "clearers" because our job was to clear the stage of the small
articles, chairs, sofas, tables and so on. And then later on we were taken into the
union. They were well organized. Had a very strong union.
Q: Were there any confrontations that came up with management? Between the unions
and ...
A: The only one that came up turned out to be a fraud, which was after I already had left
the work in the theater. Several people went to jail. They pulled a strike on the moving
picture studios. The stagehands union cooperated, and it was a complete shakedown.
We had a business agent here, who was in charge of the union, by the name of Brown that
I knew intimately from working with him, and when I read about a possible strike being
called I very naively called Brown on the phone. Said, "You know I owe a debt of gratitude
to the union. I could probably not have gone either through high school or law school with­out
the money I earned in the theatre and I want to repay that debt partially by doing what
I can. I want to offer my services as an attorney should you need it." I can hear his words
yet, he said, "That's damn decent of you. I'll tell that to the boys. We don't have a
lawyer, we hire them on the hoof." The words have stayed with me all those years. I never
heard from him. And then I learned later of course that they didn't need a lawyer, they
needed a guardian angel because they went to jail eventually.
Q: And then you say it was a shakedown. What- what ...
A: They were trying to get concessions from the moving picture studios. I don't know
exactly what they were after but it did cost the moving picture producers heavily.
•
Edward P. Saltiel Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield
15
And it was long after they had paid that the scandal broke. And there .was a man named
Bio:ff as I recall who was the leader. He went to jail also. But this was long after the
studios paid the shakedown money, ran into hundreds of thousands of dollars. But that was
the closest - in answer to your question - the closest that we came to any labor strife.
A: And that was after you had left.
Q: Yes. In those days we had about sixteen legitimate theaters in Chicago's Loop, and there
were a lot of people employed. And then the moving picture theaters, like the Chicago
Theater, the State and Lake and the Marlbro and the Granada and so forth started putting
on stage shows. So the stagehands expanded into those.
SESSION 1, TAPE 2, SIDE 1
Q: What do you remember of your high school days?
A: Oh I remember a lot of things that- it would take me days to tell.
Q: What school did you go to?
A: It was - originally North Division, was changed to Waller High School just shortly
before I got there. It was recently changed again, to Lincoln Park High School.
Q: Do your remember any particular teachers that were influential in your ...
A: Well we had a principal by the name of Westcott, Oliver Westcott, who was a dynaptic
person. Really should have been president of a university. He was in my opinion that
capable. He retired because of age. He was succeeded by a man named Adams, who was
strictly a political appointee. Nice enough guy but certainly didn't have the ability to run
a high school.
Well I remember a Mrs. McLean, who taught mathematics and was head of the Lite11ary
Society. She got angry with me because, as its captain, I called the baseball tttam
together, and said, "You're going either to be baseball players or actors, you can't be
both." The school was small and we didn't have enough to go around. Since she was calling
rehearsals and I was calling practice, there was a constant conflict. So the word got to :her
and she sent somebody to tell me to come and see her. And I said, "She wants to see
me, she knows where I am." And she came. (laughter) And we became very good friEmds
after that. (chuckles) But I guess I had my father's independent spirit. (laughter)
Q: Who won out in that case?
A: Neither one of us, we just agreed to schedule practice and rehearsals at different
times. And the long and short of it was I became president of the Literary Society.
Q: Oh is that right. (laughter) Were you manager of the baseball . . .
A: I was the manager. They called us captain in those days. Manager was the one that
took care of the business, arranging schedules and so on.
I remember one incident. We were invited to play in one of the suburbs, and it was a big
deal for boys to go to the suburbs, it was like going to Europe. But we were advised that
if we had a black player on our team not to bring him. And we did have. And I caJled
the team together and I said, "We're not going." And they were - oh they were ery
upset. And they ... I said, "We have a team, and we aren't going to separate it." So