Betty Leinicke Memoir
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University of Illinois at Springfield Norris L Brookens Library Archives/Special Collections Betty Leinicke Memoir L533. Leinicke, Betty b. 1925 Interview and memoir 2 tapes, 180 mins., 45 pp. CHRIST EPISCOPAL CHURCH Leinicke, member of Christ Episcopal Church in Springfield, discusses changes in the services, form of church government, priests and bishops, conflicts between high and low Episcopal churches, election of women, and the Prayer Book. She also talks about her participation in the church, women's organizations, couples groups, election to the Synod, and membership in other governing bodies in the church and the Diocese. Interview by Sandra Britz Armbruster, 1981 OPEN See collateral file Archives/Special Collections LIB 144 University of Illinois at Springfield One University Plaza, MS BRK 140 Springfield IL 62703-5407 © 1981, University of Illinois Board of Trustees Preface '!his manuscript is the product of a series of tape-recorded interviews conducted by Sarma Britz Al:mbruster for the oral History Office,5anJcmton state University on october 10, 1981. Margaret Reeder transcribed the tapes ani I..i..ma s. Jett edited the transcripts. Betty I.einicke came to Cllrist Church as a very young child. She is one of its most devoted members. She has been an active participantin all phases of church life including election to the Synod, two of which have elected Bishops, the 'WtllErl's organizations, oouples groups,am membership on the various goveJ:nin;J l:xxiies of Christ Church and the Diocese. Betty clarifies many questions about the Episcopal Church in general ani Christ Church specifically such as~in the savices, fonn of church qovernment, conflicts between high am lCM Episcopal churches, election of wanen, ani the Prayer Book. ~has a Masters Degree fran 8an;Jan'On state University. She was inspired to go back to school when one of her priests told her she had a wonierful mirx:1 but was not using it as well as she should. She is an interestin;J narrator, one which is entertaining an1 infonnative. Readers of the oral histo:ry memoir should bear in mind that it is a transcript Of the spoken word, am that the interviewer1 narrator and editor sought to presave the infcmnal, conversational style that is inherent in such historical sources. Bargam:m state university is not responsible for the factual accuracy of the memoir, nor for views expressed therein; these are for the reader to judge. 'Ihe manuscript may be read, quoted ani cited freely. It may not be reprabnsd in Whole or in part by any means, electronic or mechanical, withcut ~ionin writing fran the oral Histo:ry Office, 5an;Jan'On State U'niversity, Springfield, Illinois 62794-9243. Table of contents Backgrouni • 1 '!he Boys' Choir ani 'lheatre. 5 Pews 6 Church Renovations • 8 WCinen' s Ol:ganizations. .10 I.eadership Roles ani Guilds. .12 Parents. .1.5 Men's OJ:ganizations. .17 SUn:lay SChool. .19 Rev. Jerry Wallace • .21 Rev. John Hauser • .22 Rev. William Jacobs and Assistant Rector Harry Haydis. .23 Rev. Frank Shaffer • .25 Fduca.tion and Harry Haydis .27 Synod. .29 Churchmanship. • • • • .31 Bishop Donald Hillestand • .34 Synod Fonnat • .35 wanen C1ez:gy • .36 Bishop White • .38 Major Qmrges in Cllrist Church • .40 Betty I.einicke, october 10, 1981, Springfield, Illinois. Sandra Al:lnbruster, Interviewer. Q: Betty when were you born? A: April 2:00., 1925 in st. Louis, Missouri. Q: When did you cane to Spri.rq.field? A: Well we moved here in the fall of 1937. My father had been offered what he thought was going to be a better position here. But as it tumed out this was the tilne of the depression. 'lhree IOOnths after he came the business failed ani he was out of work in a s~ city. '!hat was the hardest part of the depression for us, those two years in Springfield. Q: 'lhen he fOI.l!d another job? A: Yes. My parents lived the first two years of their marriage in Pulaski, Virginia which is my father's home town, the next sixteen years in st. Louis, ani sixteen years in Springfield by coincidence. '!hey spent the remaining twenty-eight years of their long married life in Clem:water, Florida. '!hey lived there larger than they did any place else. '!hey were married over 60 years. Q: Oh that was marvelous. Did they go to Christ amrch? A: Yes, they both confinned there. Actually my not:her had been raised a Presbyterian ani my father, while he had an uncle who was an Episcopal Bishop, was not really a member of any church ani we children were sent to Presbyterian surx3ay School when we were little. My sister who was very proud of her great uncle who was an EpiscopalBishop, went to the Episcopal <llurch with a friend of hers ani fell in love with it. She started going to the Episcopal Cllurch ani was confimed in st. Paul's down in st. I.ouis, but all the rest of us, In¥ mther, my father my younger sister ani I were all confinned at Chr1st Church. Q: How did they get to Christ Church? A: Well the first SUIXJay after we moved to Springfield we went to st. Paul's because it was closer to Where we lived. we had came fran the Diocese of Missouri which is very lc:::M church diocese and we'd never been exposed to the high church before. 'Ihe clouds of incense justnearly choked us. We had tears ~down our cheeks etc. st. Paul's was really higher then than it is l'10W' ani Olrist Church was lower but we were never, you know", we had no idea that this church was ever like that so my mther said, ''Well, that does it, we are going back to the Presbyterian Olruch. •• Ani the next sumay she took us over to westminster, bJ:t my youn:Jer sister ani I -were not very happy. My older sister who was a confinned Episoolalian was away at college. we were not very happy with going back to the Presbyterian Church so we looked in the phone book on our own ani found out that there was another Episcopal Church so we, in fact there were several. '!here was a st. Jolm's out on North Grarrl. Q: '!hat was the mission church? A: Yes, that was the mission church and of c::x:JUrSe st. Illke's which is still there, also was a mission church, bJ:t Olrist Church was the next closest to our heme so we persuaded mother that she should try that. So one Sun:lay in Christ Church, we knew we'd cane home, and I've been there ever since. Q: A nice little church? A: Yes, it was very, very nice. We fell in love with it the veryfirst tilne we went there. Q: '!hat was about what, 1937? A: Yes, this was the fall of 1937 ani I was confinned the follCW"ingspring. Q: so you•ve been a member quite awhile? A: I've been a member a long tilne. Q; It'11 be sixty years? A: Well it will be in 1988. My confirmation will fall in 1988 which is fifty years for me in Olrist Church ani a hurDred years for Olrist Church. Q: SO you've been here half of it's time? A: I will have been there half of its life, y~. we'll celebrate the centennial. Q: Cll that will be a really good tilne. A: Yes, it'll be nice. Well it was very interesting, there were no candles on the altar at that time. In fact I remember a big fight they had when they put cardl.es on the altar. It was Mrs. I.ucy Dickel:man who, she stood as straight as a ram rod, you'd think she'd been to west Point and she sat up in the very front pew on the Jackson street side. She was the daughter of Bufoxd Wilson who had built the parish house an::l she said very intignantly, ''My father would tum aver in his grave if he saw candles on the altar of Cllrist Church." But they p.zt them on a.eyway ani I'm sure that it really didn't bother Bufoni too much. Q: It's so stran.Je how strict they are about charge. A: Oh yes, but I think it addeci sanethi:ng. I've never objected. to the carrlles. Arr:JwaY, I often said that no girl g:rowin:J up anyWhere aould pick :better role naiels than I had at Christ Church. We had sane of the most lovely little old ladies who were just worderfu1 m:xiels for arty girl you knclw. '!hey were 1mfailinqly quiet ard gracious ard kind. ard to go into their ctmrch ard I don•t think, well I SCDetimes wonder. I look at myself ard my frie:rrls ard I think, are we giv:i.r.g this kind. of an example to the ~generation? Are theygett.inq the kind. of examples from us that we got fran them? Mrs. Dickm:man was one ard I understood fran what Mrs. Hill told ne that she had lived a very tragic life. She told ne one day a very sad stoey. Mrs. Dickm:man had lost her little girl ard I don't remember, it was fran diptheria or sametlli.nq of that sort. She sat roc:ldnq the child all night ard durinq the night the baby died in her arms ard when they came in the .JOOrninq, why there she was holdinq the baby already turned stiff ard she was still sit.tinq there roc:ldnq that dead child. '!hey had to pey her arms from aroun:i the child ard you would never have known she had arty tragedy in her life to see her. She was a lovely, lovely person. '!hen there was Mrs. Hatch, Mrs. Pascal Hatch ani her sister, Mrs. I.ogan Hay. '!hen there were three sisters, Jane Blunk's mother, Mrs. Nathan COle, ard Mrs. Sherman was her sister. Her scm was the Hiram Sherman, the actor. Q: Well I don't k.now' who he is. A: Well he's not a movie actor, he's a stage actor, veey well k.n.o\'rm. in ~circles. I think he's :retired n.at~ ard I can't remember what the th.i:rd sister's name was. '!hey were always there and then there was Mr. ard Mrs. Vredenburgh ard they were such a dear old couple. Mr. Vredenburgh would always sit there with his ann around her in ctmrch ard they sat in front of us. As soon as the service would start he would sit there ard put his ann around her shoulders ard sometimes you would notice that they were holdinq harrls too. Q: NOW' were they the ones on South 6th street or were they the ones out by Riverton? think but they lived on the other side of the street ard about a A: '!hey were out on South 6th street. Q: Where the insurance c:x:mpany is n.att, the big red. house? A: No, no it was on the other side, that was part of the same family I block further north. Q: Oh back closer to Franklin Life? A: No dawn closer to South Grand. '!hey were south of south Grand but no, I guess it was :further south. '!hey lived a block or two south of South Grard. I don't remember just what part it was. Well anyway then of course you knclw Ihyllis Herndon. When I came she was like about a four year old, a cute little redheaded tot ard she was always there with her m:Xher, her gran::bnother, Mrs. Matheny, ard her aunt, her grandmother1s sister, Mrs. Powell. '1he:re were faJr of them, females all lined. up in a raw. '!hey sat in the same pew then that they sit in now. Mr. Herndon didn't came--his m:Xher lived acr:ass the street fran Olrist Qrurch right aver the Marine Bank property, where the Marine Bank drive-in wirdows are there. She went to Presbyterian Church ani she insisted that Louis go to Presbyterian Church with her ani he very rarely would ever cane, just on special occasions perhapshe would cane to church with Marian ani lbyllis untU after his n¥Jther died. Then of course he started ~to Christ Church regularly. But he was ••• Q: Daninated by his mother? A: Oh yes, very much so. She daninated them all. She was quite a wcanan, yes she was in:ieed. 'Ihen of course my sister am I, we were very irreverent and we used to call the Senior and Junior Warden Mutt and Jeff. No one ever ushered except the Junior Warden ani the Senior Warden. 'Ihe Senior Warden was Pascal Hatch who was tall and thin ani the Junior Warden was Clifford Hathaway who was short and sort of stout. They were a picture, you know', goirg up the aisle together every sun1ay. You couldn't have had more of a contrast ani that would be a good one. We didn't have a revolving vestry then so people juststayed on the vesb:y practically until they died ani they always had the same Junior ani Senior Wamen they had had for years am they did for years after I came. It wasn't tmtil Bill Jacob's ti.Ire that they went to revelving vest:t:y. So that was the way I foun:l Christ C'rurch. I was very much .inpressed by the people, especially the people who were my parents age or a little older, the middle aged ani elderly.'!hey were such gentle people, good people ani they were very good to us. Mother was elected the president of the women's Auxiliary just a feM years after we came here ani we were always fully acx::epted. We had same really haxd times financially after we came but you would never have known it by the way we were treated. There was always one of these older ladies who anonyn¥JUSly, as far as I was concerned youknow", would give m:mey to Mr. Wallace to sen::1 me to church canp am he 'WOUld always say, ''Well one of your mother's frier:rls gave the money for you to go, Betty, but she didn't want you to know who it was." Q: So you got to go for a long time. A: I got to go every year and they were just really gocx:l people. you have any questions you wanted to ask? Do Q: How many physical changes can you see in Olrist Church? A: Oh well it's been re:m:xieled several tilnes. When I first came, the organ was aver on the garden side. You krlc:M where the wall kini of is at an an;rle there? 'Ihat's where the console oJ:gan was. 'Ihe organpipes are still over there but the console was there too down on the level with the pews. Now it's up in the choir level. But it was down there and Mrs. Anna 'Wancker, I'm not sure how you pronounce that, I'm not really positive after all these years, rut she was the organistand her sister, Mrs. Will Taylor, lottie, Carlotta actually, everybody called her Iottie, she was the choir director and also the lead soprano ani I do mean soprano. I think she must have been a beautiful singer in her day but she was getting on am she quavered on the high notes you knc:w. But we had a boy's choir of boy sopranos. '!here were a fS~T adults but most of the choir was composed of :boy sopranos am she was very good with boys. we had a lot of J;JeOPle who joined the churdl. In fact, Mrs. Sc:hoenin;;J told ne that's why they came to Clrist <llu:r:ch. Q: Did she? A: It was because her son, Paul, had a beautiful voice. Q: well she had cane ~Yas a child to Clrist <llu:r:ch? A: She told ne two stories on that. one that she had been baptized Epi.sc:xpalian and then her sister said no, that wasn•t right so I don•t k:now. Q: I have the story about the neighbor lady running out and getting the priest off the street and that was Bishop SSymour. A: Yes, I had that one too. Her sister said that wasn't correct so I'm not sure whether that's tl:ue or not. Q: It makes a good story. A: It makes a good story yes, but her sister said that was not so. You have to t.ake sane of these t.hings with a grain of salt. Q: Did she tell you about the only person speakinq to her was the colored. janitor? A: Yes. 'Ihat's .when they sta.rted. cam.i.rlg', she and her son, Paul. Paul was my age and he was a boy soprano and they paid them you see. '!hey paid so ll1llCtl for each rehearsal, so :much for each sun:tay nmnin;;J and we had all these little boys and many of them became Episocpalians and many of their families :became Episoopalians. It was beautiful. On Olristmas Eve when one of those boy sopranos, and they always had one who was the star of the year you knol'tl, who had this outstanding voice. One of those little so~would sing Silent Night and it ~dtear your heart out. I llll.SS them you k:now. We've always had good choirs but there was just nothing like those little boy sopranos. Q: Do you remember the theatre? A: Oh I remember the theatre yes, I took part in plays on that stage. wayne's first experience, he grew up at Grace I.utheran Church around the corner and Addie O'Brien, Addie Rentschler nt::JW, also was at Grace Iutheran. She's always been active in amateur theatrics. He said his first experience in theatrical productions was at Olrist O:m::r::ch because they used the stage. You knc:lw many amateur groups did, they used the stage and auditorium there at Clrist Omrch. Q: Was the whole parish house on that what we call the third floor, wasnallthstre? . A: Well all except the office, the rector's office. Q: Where was that then'? 6 A: Now I tell you the parlor, you know' where the work roan is and Alice's office and Chuck's office next to it, right about that much was the parlor. It was about the sane size as our present library but it was on that side at the front a.nd then on the other side where Hoby's office is was the rector's office. Q: Up over the stai:.tway? A: Yes, and the stail:way went Clown but it took up toore roan because the stairway went Clown from the rector's office. Q: So hatl did you cx:me into the blildirr;J then? A: You went around, unless you were p.Ul:in;r into the rector's office to talk to him. Q: Oh so in other WOJ:ds you had to cx:me in th:rcugh the side dcor in the c:hurcih? Could you cx:me in by where the priests get ready'? A: No, that wasn't there. '!hat was all one big ream Clown there then at the battan of the stairs, it was all one big roan. see it wasn't divided. NCM thel::e's a restroan there arrl a sacristy but that was all one big roan and you came into it fran the outside. '!hat was what was called. the choir roan a.nd that• s Where the choirs vesbnents were and that's Where the priest's vesbrtents were a.nd all that sort of stuff. My llDther was the choir mot:he:r for many years arrl she kept the, oh they don't have one now, but she kept all the choir robes and t::hin;Js in gcxxi repair and saw that they were laundered. a.nd merded a.nd everyt:hirq. It's been remodP..led. a rrumber of times. Q: Yes, and. I didn't reaJ.ize that when I fi:rst started work:irq on this. I faux! out that the pews have been replaced. A: Yes, I've got one of the old pews in the den here '\ftiOUld. you like to see it? Q: Yes. I'd love to. (pause in tape) So they had rental pews? A: well at one time they did, yes, at least that's what I was told. Not when I was thel::e, but that's what I was told. Q: Not by the time you came it wasn't? A: No, but that's what I was told. Q: Did they still tend to have certain pews that they considered theirs? A: Oh they did a.nd in fact if satebody sits down in Hlyllis' pew this day, she's not too happy about it. As a matter of fact I've been sitt:i.rg in the sane pew for so many years I •m not too fan of sanebody sitt.in;J in mine. Q: Cll, tell me which one is Hlyllis' pew and. I'll for sure not sit in it. A: It1s the third one f:rcm the fralt over by the center aisle on the JaclcBon street side. Q: Oh, the thi::td. one fran the front. A: 'lhat's right. When I was growi.nq up we sat in the fourth pew. NCM we sit in the same pew that Phyllis does, down over by the Resurrection wi.nd.ow there but that was the Vredenbu:r::g''s when I was growing up. we set behini them in the fcmth pew and I don't remember just why we moved. up to the third pew saoewhere alorq the line but this was not when I was a cbild. 'lhis was after I was married. that we moved. up one pew for sane reason or other. Q: Were the :pews divided up into sections then? A: Well yes. 'It1ey had an arm in the middle. NOW' they don't, they go clear all the way across but the section that I have in the other roan is just half of a pew see and it has an arm on each end so there was an arm in the middle. Q: So your pew was the one arm that c:onnects the next. A: '!bat's right. Q: When did they tear those other pews out? A: Well it was when Frank Shaffer was there and he was rector f:rcm well let us see nt::IW, I'm tryirq to think exactly. Frank died. in 1972 and I can't remariber just haw long he had been rector. I think it wculd have been about 1970 or thereabouts. Q: So the original pews were there until about 1970? A: Yes. Q: '!hen ~tdid they do with the ones that they took out? A: Well anyone in the chu:rd:l who wanted one could take one bane but same of them did cane apart when they were tearirg them out so all of them that wren•t carted. off by church members were thrown in a truck and taken out to the dunp. Q: Were D:lSt of them adopted? A: No, mJSt of them were not adopted. Q: Ch ~ta shame. A: Yes, it was. It hurt me to see them go. It really did although I must say these a:re more comfortable. Q: Why did they replace them? A: well they were really wearing out. A lot of them were so splintery you couldn't sit in them without tea:rin:J ycur hose and sna.gqir.q your clothes etc. '!hey ke.Pt oc:.mirg apart and they'd have to 8 repair them. I think dl:y rot was settirg in am various things. As I say, sane of them were in such bad shape they just came apart when they began to take to them out of the church am the one that I got I said, "I'11 take this one," am Frank Shaffer looked at me am he said, ''Wouldn't you know' it, Betty picked the JOOSt solid one of the whole bunch." It is, it's pretty solid, we've had a lot of grarrlchildren bounce around on it and it's still going strorg. Q: It looks beautiful. A: we use it when we have a family dirmer. We line all the kids up on it you see at one end of the table am it '\tJOrks great. Q: Well what else did they charge in 1.970 do you remember? A: DJring Frank's time there they also did a lot of major remodeling. '!hat1s when we had a ca.ptiol fun:ls drive am it may be a little late by sayirg 1970, it may have been before that. I think he was rector fran about 1.964 to 1.970, sanething like that am it was sanetime during this time. Q: Did they change anymore of the church structure itself, inside? A: '!hat1 s what I'm trying to remember. I don1t just remember when all that stuff was done where they put the sacristy am all that. '!hat was before that I think, they remodeled before that. I think the major things that they did, they put in all that carpeting at that time am did same major replasterirg at that time. 'Ihe plaster was fallin:J am they replastered a lot of the inside of the church. It wasn't so much a remodelin:J then as it was reflu:bishirg am repairs.one of the biggest changes was when the reredos was given am Mrs. Q: Palmer. A: No, not Mrs. Palmer, Mrs. Palmer gave • • • was it Mrs. Palmer gave the reredos? Q: I think so. A: I think it was ••• Mrs. Holbrook was the one that I was tryingto think of bit maybe Mrs. Holbrook gave the lights. I think you are probably right, Mrs. Palmer gave the reredos. Q: Who was Mrs. Holbrook? A: She was a rich old lady, but I think comelia was about the last of them. I don't think we have much wealth in the church anymore.But aeyway, when they did that, put that reredos in, that was really a major c:::han;e because we had just a very sinJ>le back to the altar. You know that wood we have around it? well that's all we had behind it and then up at the top they had this wi.ndc:M am we used to call it the cherub wirrlcw. It was all these darling little ~icfaces. one of those little cherubs looked like my little sister when she was about three or four years old you know, blonde and blue eyed and everybody 9 was very forxi of that window. scmebody says it's down in the church basement. Q: I can't fim it. A: I didn't think it was there. I think they gave it away. Q: Nobcdy knows what happened to it. A: I think Bill Jacobs probably .•• but aeyway that took place durin;J his term as rector. Q: Was it a half-mxm wi.ndc:M? A: Yes, it was arxi at the time there was so Im..1.Ch objection to it bein;J taken out that we were told that it was goin;J to be put back over the font arxi lighted artificially. '!hat's the outdoor wall there. 'lhen the next thin;J we knew, why that plan had been ch:opped,arxi nobody knew where the win:ic::M was. Q: So it's been missirg a lorg time? A: It's been missirg a lO!IJ time. I like the reredos but I have never really been as happy with it as I was with the window. Q: Why did they decide to take the wirrlow" out? A: well because the reredos goes up so high. You see the top of it was up over where the window would be. Q: So she bought the reredos arxi donated it whether they reallywanted it or nat? A: well somebody must have wanted it. But there was sane of us that didn't. '!hat's the way it often goes arourn there. Q: 'Ihe church is so full of politics in so many ways, it's amazirg to me the politics. I guess it's because I've never stayed in any one church lorg enough to see that. A: Well now seeirg as you see, sandy, we are nat a congregational church arxi the congregation does not get it's ch2mce to vote del:oocratically on what they want. If they'd held a ~tional meetirq arxi said, ''Mrs. Palmer wants to get a l:eredos arxi ~t will need partiig with~ little w.in::low up there that you are all so forxi of. 'Ihis is what ~t will look like yru know arx1 take your choice." Peoplemight have voted for it arxi they might have voted against it. Probably 'WOUld have been pretty evenly divided, but that's not the way things work. 'Ihe rector arxi the vest.zy make the decisions in the Episcopal Church. It's not just in Olrist Church yru see, it was a republican fonn of government rather than a cierto:ratic fonn of government. You elect your vestry arxi then the vestry makes the decisions. '!hey don't have to go back to you arxi say, "Is this how you want us to vote?•• Q: Ch so that is why it was onl.y an informational vote on :buying' the Sea:rs prcperty? A: Right, that's right an:.i this is the way all Episcq:al parishes operate, this is the way the EpiscxJpal church government is set up.Often pecple who OCill8 to the Ep1sccpal church fran other denaninations don't really 1.ll".::erstan that. I'm not sa.yin; that em-way is better but this is the way it works. so sanetiJres yell have decisions made bythe vestey that the majority of the cxmq.r:eqation really is unhappyal::xJut. Very fa~ :people are really, as fond as they were of the I.eisenrin;s, are really happy with that Ieisenrin;;J window. It doesn't fit in with. the other stained. qlass wi.rdaws, it is not of the same type an:.i sort of sticks out like a sore tlumtb. Q: Which window? A: 'lhe crest win:iow, the fish, the one that nr:1 husban:i says looks like a cover fran Field an:.i stream. Which is not a nice thing for him to say, but that's what he said. Q: Yes, right, but they are very modern. A: SO these things happen an:.i often the first thing' the con;p:egationkrlows alJout it it's done and I've qotten very philosophical al::xJut it ·nr::M because it's happened.. I used to get upset alJout these things but I figure, ''Well this is the way it is in the Episcopal Qrurch and youmight just as well face it." NOW' where was I before I got off on politics? Ch I was tellin; yell about cllarqes in the church. Well that was one of the major c:harges, the red cal.'petinq changed things.We used to have onl.y a carpet down the center aisle an:.i of course there under the choir, the steps under the choir stalls, was this beautiful tile floor that had been given by the wanen's Auxillaey when the church was built ancl it was getti.r:g badly broken up. It had a lot of wear over the years an:.i they had to do sauethi.rg. I do not fUlly agree with the decision to cover it up, I think it could have been repaired. It might have been mre expensive to repair it but it was very pz:etty and I liked it. Q: ItIs like back by the font? A: Well yes, sort of but it was different though but it was tile like that. Q: 'lhe small ItKJSaic tile? A: Yes, liDBaic tile an:.i it had pictures am it had in there yell k::nOW' the 'WOrds "given by the wanen's AuXilla.J:Y'' ani all that. Q: Q1 it did? A: Yes. Q: How" many of the different auxillaries have you belon;Jed to? A: You mean guilds? Q: Yes, I'm sony there is only one auxillary. A: 'I'al.ki.rr;J about the wanen's organizations, back in the beqi.nnin;Jthere was the Parish House Club ani you had to be invited to join that ani the Altar GUild, you had to be invited to join that. '!hey were very exclusive, but those had gone by the way by the time we came to ~r~ield in 1937, as far as be:i.n;r exclusive organizations. At that tiJne you had the woman•s Auxil.lary and st. Hilda• s Guild. '!hat was the only guild, and of course the Altar Guild but ~who reallywanted to could join it then, you didn't have to be lllVited. st. Hilda1s Guild was for working wanen which in those days meant ncstlyspinster ladies because back then school teachers couldn't be married and rurses couldn1t be ma:r:ried and in fact very fet~ wcmen did work outside the heme who were married so it was sanetimes unkindly referred to as the old maid's club. It met in the E!\1'el'lirq so it was just an exclusive group more or less but you didn't have to be :ilwited to join it. 'Ihe Wcmen's Auxillary was for all the wanen, of all ages,fran young m:Jt:hers to gran:lrlothers ani this was what nrz mother was the last president of. 'Ihe two years that she was president they were in the process of chan;J:i.n;r aver to the, or maki.n.:J plans for chan;J:i.n;r aver, to the guild system, the Episcopal Church women or Wcmen of CM'ist Orurch as they called wee. so she was the last president of the wanen•s Auxillary and Helen Quick was the first president of the Episcopal Church waren and they worked together on making these changes. It was very traumatic for sc:me of the ladies because they were divided up into these guilds. 'lhey had two daytime guilds and one nightime guild. No, three daytime guilds. Now I don1t know if I can remember the original names because those guilds have been c'harged, the names have been changed ani changed, eveeytime there's been a major change, there1s been a change of names. But as I recall there was st. Anne's, st. catherine's ani st. Elizabeth's. Maybethere was four because there was st. Margaret1s too. I believe originally there was four of them. In the beqinn:i.n;J there was not a night guild, there were four daytime guilds. I was in st. Margaret1s and my first job in Episcopal Church wanen was as bazaar chainnan for st. Margaret's. 'Ihis was right after we came back to Spr:i.n;rfield,after my husbani got out of the University of Illinois. we gotmarried right after the war ani then he went to school over at the university of Illinois. so right after we came back, I was in st. Margaret1s guild. Now the guilds rotated every two years, they putall the names in several fishlx::Mls. '!hey pxt the inactives in one, the actives in another ani the semi-actives in another and then theywould draw one for st. Anne's, one for st. catherine's, one for st. Elizabeth's, ani one for st. Margaret's out of the active fishlx::Ml l.mtil they were all gone. 'lben they walld go to the semi-active so everyone in the church was assigned to a guild an:l your yea:rbook had everybodys nane in it. Where we n<:7tl just have the guild officers and the progJ:mu, they also had the names of all the people in that guild listed in the yea.J:book. People 'WOUld sanetilnes get ki:rxi of lmhappy about bein:] pxt in a guild where they didn•t knc:M very many people but the whole idea was for them to get acquainted you kn<:1tl. But people you know' are very contrite, kini of cliquish and of course somti.mes they would make exceptions if one wanan deperded on a ride fran saneone else, like Mabel San1burg and her sister were always in the same guild because they lived together. so that was the guild systemthen as it operated fran about 1941 until after world War II when they Betty Ieinicke added a YOUl'J3' nother's guild, st. Marys. I believe it was at that time that they dropped st. Margareta because as the y<:Jl1l'ger wanen went into St. Marys they didn't need four guilds. '!hen eventually there were enough YOUl'J3' mothers they had to have two evenin:J guilds, they got too big to meet in the hane, so they divided up and there was st. Mary'S and st. MarthaIS in the evenfn:J and then St. AmleIS, st. catherine's and st. Elizabeth's in the afterD:xm. well times chan;Jed, toore and more wanen went to work, the YOUl'J3' mothers• guild went on until just a few years ago when it was killed off by a group of very fanatic Pentacostal's that we had in the church at that time. After they actually killed off st. Mary's Guild, because you :kn.ow nobody else would go to it finally, it was finally just dissolved by the rector when they all went off to different churches ani left Cllrist Ch.urch. we•ve never had an~guild since for yourg mothers. sane of the young wanen are rDii goug to st. Hilda•s which seems to be a ~group r'Diio Q: NCM when did st. HildaIs start then? A: It has always been, it became a part of the Episoopal Church wanen. It had been separate back in the old Auxil.laey days ani it became a part of the guild system when they went to the guild system but it's never really been a part if you :kn.ow what I mean. 'Ihey still tend to be a little indepement, they make their own decisions. ErXl of side One, Tape one Q: Betty what offices have you held? A: Of course right '!'1CM I'm president of the EC.W. I've been treasurer of ECW, I've been chairman of the Program committee. NCM the Program committee is a whole l1E!W' history in itself. It used to be that we had this Prog:r:am committee that met every week ani did all the prcx;j:tams for all the guilds in EC.W but that's another story. '!hen I've been Bazaar Ctlairman for my guild, I •ve been Guild <llai.rman, I •ve been Program Ctlairman for the guilds, in fact I'm Program Cllainnan for st. Cecelia1s this year in addition to be.i.rg president. 'Ihe only thing I haven't been is secretary and I've always avoided that like the plague. Q: A lot of work? A: Oh, I just don't like bei.n;J secretary. I don't think I would ever have made a very good secretary. I • d get too, what would really ha:ppen to me as secretary is I 1d get too involved in what1s goi.n;J on and I'd fo:r:get to take notes. Also I like to do a lot of talking and if I try talking and writin;J at the same time it doesn't work very well so I always avoided being secretary. But I've been Guild O'lai.rman several times, of various guilds. Q: so what guild are you in OCM? A: I •m in st. Cecelia1s. Of course rDii people aren't assigned to guilds you see and there are a lot of 'WCil'lel'l who go to both st. Joan• s 13 and st. Cecelia•s. '!hey go to st. Joan• s and they go out to lunch and then they go to st. Cecelia's, just make a day of it. Q: Okay, then men did they start st. Cecelia's and st. Joan's? A: Well when we got down to the point where we only had two guilds, we dropped st. Ann•s and put everybody in st. catherine• s and st. Elizabeth1s. 'lhen same of the women decided they wanted a monri.rg guild so they decided that they would just cl'large the names and start fresh you knc:Jw because the St. Elizabeth's ladies wanted to keep St. Elizabeth's and the st. catherine's ladies wanted to keep st. catherine's names of the new guild so they just decided they's start with new names so st. Joan's is the ~guild then and st. Cecelia's is the afternoon. New guilds, new names. their pzograms? Q: About when did they do that? A: Oh dear, I wish you wouldn't ask me when. Q: Well just about, I mean 1960's or 1970's? A: Probably about ten years ago maybe, no ITOre than that I •m sure. Q: What do the guilds do, what is their pu:t:poseS1 how do they conduct I •ve never atterxled. A: I think one of the primary purposes is for fellowship. Actuallythe guilds used to do a lot 100re t:hirgs than they do now. Each guild used to have a hooth. at the bazaar, that's when I said I was Bazaar Cllairman for st. Margaret's. we had a bazaar and each guild would have a booth at the bazaar and do saoething. 'lhe guild used to have treasuries and raise m::mey and all that, they don't have any treasmy anynore, they don't raise any m::mey. Everybody helps in the COUntryCUpboard but not as a guild. 'lbe main th.irg about the guilds now is m:>Stly fellowship but we do try to have interesting and awzopriate programs. Now what we do is we have refreshments first th.irg when they get there. In the ~guild they will often have coffee and coffee cake and things like that. 'lhen the aftemoon guild they will :rore likely have desert, like you knc:Jw, the stan:W:d pumpkin pie or somet:hirq like that. After that people sit around and visit and it gives them plenty of time to visit before they start the program. Q: '!hey get their talking done? A: Yes, because there are several of these older ladies that this is the only time they have a very good chance to visit. '!hey are intimidated by the stairs ani a lot of them don•t cane down to talk to you that DUCh. 'Ibis is the tilne they really get to visit with each other. 'Ibis is particularly true in st. Cecelia's which gets an older ct'O'.\d. I'm one of the girls at st. cecelia's and I'm a grarrlnDther four tilnes. Maigaret ca.I=Pl was tellin;J me the ather ITOmin;J that this group goes out for breakfast together, to brunch rather on sundays,she's the baby of that outfit and she's seventy-five. SO it's all relative you see. But we have at st. Cecelia's, I'm probably one of the yourgest at fifty-six and the oldest is probably Jane weir who oanes very regularly still at the age of ninety-three. Betty Ieinicke 14 Q: Oh my goodness. A: She has saneone drive her in fran Pleasant Plains. Q: Does her daughter bring her? A: well WhoeVer drives her in doesn't stay, they just brinq her in. Q: Her daughter still lives with her. A: Well if her daughter brin;Js here, she doesn't stay. Q: '!here are m::>re older wanen in O:lrist Church. I mean ninety is not particularly old. A: Have you ever t.alked. to Gran:lma Ill? She's ninety-nine. Q: Now who's GratXIma Ill? A: Dillman. Q: No. A: well ask Eloise Grimes abalt her, she can tell you about her. Q: Ard haw is Eloise related to Grandma I.u? A: She sort of adopted her. Remember a few years ago when they had an Adopt a Senior Citizen for lent? Q: No, it l1lllSt have been before I started. A: well arrjWay she adopted her for lent an:.i just kept goinq. But anyway her son an:.i his family, well they had twin girls about my ycunger sister's age. It seems they would :be in their early fiftiesnow. '!hey grew up in Christ an.u:t::h an:.i GrarDna. Ill hasn't been foryears, she hasn't been able to cane, but she's still a member, she's ninety-nine. Q: What's her last name? A: Dillman. Q: Didn't she just celebrate her birthday not very lag ago? A: Yes, she was just ninety-nine. Q: Hcby asked. us to senc:i cards ani I did. A: So tNery year we tried to have a program interesting, maybe informative, not too controversial. I th.ink that last I wasn't therebecause I was at the Synod Ccmnittee to elect a new bishop but Iunderstood that the last one was a little bit controversial for them. '!hey were taJJd.r:g' aboUt the Episcopal Task Force for wane.n and. it gotki.nd. of1 the discussion got a little hot and. heavy ani sane of theolder WCifl.el'l were distressed by it. 15 Q: What is the Episoopa.l Task Force for women PJ::o;;J:r:am? A: Oh you keep asking me t.h.in;Js that are a Whole different sto:r:y. It is a group that are p.l:t'SUinq feminist goals sane of which are not necessarily goals that go over too big in mid-America. Q: Okay, let's go back to the guilds. A; St. Joan's have a little bit more, their programs ten:i to be just a little more controversial am maybe a little bit nora spiritual too. Most of the wanen in st. Cecelia's pretty much knoW' where they are at as far as their relationship with God ani they don't want to be distu:r:bed by these other facts if you kn.ow what I mean. Q: '!hey have it better. A: Which :r:emi.rDs me of Mrs. Palmer who was always greatly clistressed by the phrase "miserable sinner'' in the confession. She said, 11I 1m not a miserable sinner and. I object to saying I am ~Su:rxiaymorrrl.rr:l·" (laughter) Oh everybody has delightful stor1es about Mrs. Palmer, she was quite a character. But anyway then we have very brief business meeti.ngs and that's it. 'Ihat's what guilds are all about. It's m:stly a social, partly educational, :rut lOC)Stly social and that's qocxi because we need every opporbmity for people to get better acquainted and. if you are goirg to have a churc:h family, you've got to kn.ow each ather and. not just be a face that you see going up to the altar on a sunday lOOming. Maybe yau can p.It a name with that face and. maybe you can't. So arr:1 opportunities Where people can get better acquainted was always good. Q: I kn.ow we've enjoyed it, I t:hink that's the t.h.in;J that is so special about Clrist OlUrch, the fellowship. A: 'Ihat's right. Q: Was it always that way, the fellC711Ship? A: Oh well mostly yes. When we first came back here after we went to school • • • when we married we went right over to Clampaign so rr.ry years at Christ Church as a married waoan starts in about 1948 when we came back. We had what we called the 'lhe SUpper Club, which later was called 'lhe F\!ll.C711Ship Club. It was a group of yoo.tl3' oouples and that's where I made IOOSt of rr.ry frienl8 that are 11t;1 frierx:Js still to this day. Jo Arm and. Ikm Raymer, she came here as a bride and they were in that group and Shirley ani Russ Gillcx::k were membe:rs of that group ar.d Mary and Jim Wirminq. I probably could think of a lot of ot:hers if I tried but many of these people have been 11t;1 frienl8 l'lCM for thirty years or ll\O:t8. I'm not sure that the fellC711Ship was such when we first moved here because Mother had a lot of frierlis at Cbrist Olurch t:h:rou;Jh the wt:men•s organization but Mother ani Dad had veryfew frienl8 at Christ Churctl as couples. Pecple, I th.ink, before the war were a great deal m:>re rese:r:ved in Christ Church. Well they were always ve:r:y nice to us ani w never felt like ootsiders. Mother ani Dad did not make close frienl8 as oouples in the churc:h.. we kids did of course because see we grew up in the sunday School and the yolU"g'peoples. Mother, not workinq an:l beirq active in the ~·s organizations, made frienis there. But nr:t dad did not make close frien.:Js at Olrist Church an:i he did in Florida after they nx:weCi down there. well all of his closest frienis are • Q: Members of his church? A: Members of his church. Since M::1thsr diEd I've heard really how close the friends he has had because they've really looked after him you :kr.v.::M they've c:xltll\! by taken him to church every sunday an:i take him out to breakfast a.f'terwanis ard really looked after him. Q: What did he do for a livin;J after he finally got a job? A: He was a salesman. 'nlat1s what he was when he came here but that one year after the business failed was one of the few times in nr:t mother and father's married life that MotheJ:' had to go to work. She went to work in a seamstress shop worki.rg six days a week for ten dollars a week. The only t:hi.rg my father could fini was drivin;J a cab at night for five dollars a week and tips an:i you kr'lcJff1 how big tips were in the depression. My sister was in oollege ard my uncle paid the rest of her oollege expenses for that year so she could finish that year an:i wouldn't lose credits. 'lb.e next year she had to stay at hare. and go to work too. I was twelve arrl I remember it all very clearly. I don't think my yourger sister remembers it very well. Q: so how long was he out of work then? A: well let•s see I guess about nine months, eight or nine months then he got a sellin;J job. He was a very goal salesman. He had been an electrician ard he had had his own electrical contractin;J business. It was a small business. He had a partner and they each had an assistant. 'nlat was it you :kr.v.::M, it was very very small but they didn•t join the l.m.ion. '!hey saw no reason to join the l.m.ion, they were their own bosses and the l.m.ions were very insistent that they join. 'Ihis was durirg the early 19301s when the labor mrlons were really feeli.rq their oats. so every jcib that they did they started hanb~ them a:rrl so pretty soon people got tired of it so he lost his electrical oontractirg business. so he got out because he wouldn't join the tmion. He was really bitter about it then after that. He couldn't get a job as an electrician so he went to work as a salesman and he made a livirlq for us all duri.rq the depression except for that bad period here in Sprirq.field. Selling, he was a real goal salesman. But then after he went back down to Florida in 1953 he saw all the construction goin;J on, that's just when the construction was goirq to 'boan for us. He decided he'd like to get back into the electrical business. well he didn't go into business for himself, he found a youn;;r man that was just st:arting out in the electrical cont::ra.ctin;J business an:i he went to work for hi:m. He worked for him full-time until he was sixty-five a:rrl part-titre until he was seventy-five until he finally retired, a::anpletely and thol.'C:l1gh1y enjoyed it. He always liked the electrical business ard he went back to it. Q: He probably helped that young man get started too? A: He did, the man got so he depended a lot on Dad. He said some of the big contractors would say, "Now don•t seni a c:rew 'Wlless you sen:l 17 Joe Howard in chal:qe of it," because Dad always made sure eve:cythin.g was done right. Q: What were your parent's names? A: Joe am Helen HoWard. '!hey were both in the war, in the anny in WOrld War I. 'Ibat's where they met, in Walter Reed Hospital. Mother was an army dieticican ani my father was a patient. Q: Oh yes. She was an amy dietician. Which meant what exactly? A: Well it meant that she was really in the army. 'Ihe nurses were, the Red Cross rrurses, were attached to the arlt\Y but the dieticians were in the A:rmy Medical Corps just like doctors and so she really was in the army and she really was a veteran and when she died she had a flag on her casket and she has a milital:y tanbstone that says ''Helen B. Hcwam., u. s. Anrr:l, world war I." so she really was in the anny.It was one war before WACS but the waaen Who were in the ArifrX Medical corps were the only ones in the army. Nurses weren•t. '!here was not an A:rmy Nurse COrps at that tilne. 'Ihe nurses Who were attached to the anny hosptials were in the Red cross. Q: Oh I didn't realize that. A: 'Ihat was World War I. '!hat's a little interesting sideline. '!hen she did go back to work in 1943. There was a shortage of dieticians _am they were building Meloorial Hospital am she heard that they were desperate for dieticians so she went back to work and worked from 1943 to 1953. At that time she joined st. Hilda's because she was workingthen. As I say it wasn't really until the war that there were married women in st. Hilda's. Q: Was she trained as a dietician? A: Yes, she got her training at Bames Hospital in st. Iarls. After the war, she went back to Barnes as actirq head dietician as the head dietician there wanted to take a leave of absence and she remembered mother as one of her outstan::ling students. She wired her and asked her if she'd get a discharge ani cane hane and take over, she had this surgeey or something and was goi.rg to be gone for six nart:hs. so mother was acting head dietician at Bames for six months before she got married. She had an interestirr:1 career. When she went in to apply for the job at Menm'ial she said she hadn•t worked for twenty-three years. She told them what she had done before that, she'd quit to get married ani so then the man said, ''Well when can youstart?" She said, "You mean just like that?" He says, "C!l yes, it will all cane back to you with credentials like yours, I'm not worried." (laughter) An:i she enjoyed it but hospital dietitics is hard work, lOD:I hours. Well to get back to Christ Olurch now we've covered the wcmen's organizations pretty well. Q: Pretty well yes, do you remember anyt:hirg about men's? A: Yes they had a number of different organizations there. Right nr:M they have this 'lhursday luncheon group, I don•t think it has a name. But they used to have a group called Boaner Davis Club ard my husban:1 18 was very active in that am that met for 1\n'lCh. It didn1t draw from just Cllrist Orurch it drew from a lot of the men who worked downt.own am worked for the state am they would meet for l'W'lCb.. I don't remember when it met, whether fNerY week or whether it met fNerY m:::mth, it's been a lorg time ago. Q: What was Bocmer Davis? A: I don't know where they got the name but that's what they calledit, the Boomer Davis Club. '!bey had a speaker you know am the wanen of the church used to do the cook.i.rg. I remember one time whoever planned the menu thought that a nice desert would be different colored jellos, you know cubed am pxt in a ba.rll, am then have little pitchers of cream for the coffee. 'lhe men started pourirg the cream over the jello. '!bey ran out of cream of course ani the wanen were very inllgnant out in the kitchen. '!hey said, ''Who would have thoughtthey would do that?" I thought it was a rather typical thing for a man to do. Q: SOmebody told ma of a cxmnent ani it just cracked ma up. '1be mre I learn, the :mre a:wroPriate it seems. "Cllrist Episcopal restaurant"? Have you heard the expression A: No, I haVen't. Q: That was attr.ibutecl to Mrs. Palmar. (laughter) A: Well we used to have a lot :mre meals down there than we do·llOW'. Q: Have you ever heard of the jitney supper? A: No. Q: 'lbat was sanethin;J from Mrs. SChoenirg, like a potluck orsaneth:i.rxJ for the public where they got ncney. A: Oh. no. Q: So that was a very lon;;r time ago too. A: My goodness. Well then they had the Brotherhood of st. Andrews that met for breakfast. '!hey used to one SUnday a m:::mth they'd go toearly church ani early church used to be earlier than it is llOW'. It was 7:30, ani then it was eight ani llOW' it's 8:30. 'lbat was back in the days when it was at 7:30 ani then wculd have breakfast together. Q: on sumay? A: on sumay yes. Q: was eveeyone invited? A: No just the men, it was a father an:i son group of men ani boys,members of st. Aimews. I think there hasn•t been too many men'sorganizations really. Bettyi.einicke Q: What•s happening to the 'WCIDel11 s organizations? A: Well I just don•t think there £Ner were so many men's organizations. Q: Well I mean the women are going to work, is the same thing happening? A: Yes, it's too bad, I think that E.C.W. is dyin;J at Clrist Church because we don1t have enough of the younger women who are interested in it. M:st of the younger women are working ani you know very few families can make it on one inccme anym:ma. I don•t think there is any answer to it really. It's a very definite social crisis. 'Ihe women my age are trying bani to keep it alive. For the older group it means a great deal. Ani I don•t know, I think maybe when that older generation is gone W'ey there wtm't be any way to keep it alive for us, we111 probably just give it up. Q: Yes ani it's a shame too. In the time when it was in full force, the women groups arrl thirgs, they didn•t need the women to make ll'Oney for the church to supplement the pledges did they? A: Oh no, in fact this business of giving" now two thousand dollars to the church tNer:f year cane about a few years ago because we had a surplus ani we decided to give the two thousand to the church ani then they started expecting it every year. 'Ihey just started plann.in;J on it. '!hat was sort of a shock to us because we just happened to have a surplus that year arrl thought we'd be nice ani give it them and the next year they ask if we -were goin;J to give two th.ousan:i again. Now they just put it in the budget and plan on it. Q: Is that fran the country OJP:loani? A: Yes, well fortunately we keep makirg :rrore noney evey year and we are able to give it 1:ut I don't knc:M whether that will keep on or not. You know if the econany gets bad will we be able to make that lTO.lCh? But no, the women usually made their noney fran their CMn projects and they both ran the gambit fran new chairs or tables for the SUnjay School roam to missionacy projects overseas. You know whate!er the women felt. we used to give noney fNerY year to the Seamen's Institute, well we don1t do that now. Q: What was the Seamen's Institute? A: It's an institute for merchant sailors who are dawn on their luck or too old to work anym:::>re, didn•t have adequate retirement or what have you. Q: we started to talk about the SUnjay School awhile ago. When you remembered it was • • • A: When I first started going up there of course we had the auditorium upstairs ani the SUnjay School roaDS were cubicles. 'Ihere were screens that you know they have on rollers that you can push back a~inst the wall. Well what your S\lrrlay SChool roam was was a cubicle Wl.th. a screen on this side and a screen on this side ani another 20 sunday School class was on the other side of the screen an:i there weretable an:i chairs aroun:i it see. so in those days when you got too loud Why you were goin;J to disturb evezybody else. '!hey had those cubicles alorgside the auditorium an:i alorgside down the basement and you went to your class which was in one of these cubicles. I was in seventh grade and that was a lovely class. It was taught by a man named Joe Miller who -worked for the state Highway Department. He had a couple of boys who were a little older than I was. He was a verynice man but the nice t.h.in;;r about that class was there were only two girls and all the rest in the class were boys. Q: Oh I bet they loved that'? A: We loved it, it's the girls that's what I mean. we had a lot of ftm and there were all these boys an:i they practically all were choir boys see. '!hat• s where we got all these boys. 'lhere were boys all over the place down there at the church because they were in the choir. so we had a lot of flm, I thoroughly enjoyed that and of course it went that way all the way through there because we never did get very many IrOre girls. once in awhile we'd get another girl but mstl.y all the way through seventh, eighth grade and high school I wasin a class with practically nothin:.J but boys. Q: You had a good time. A: I had it made, yes I did, I thoroughly enjoyed it. Q: Is your husban::l fran Sprin;Jfield? A: Yes, he was bom in Sprin;Jfield, he grew up at Grace I.ut:heran Church. We met in high school. We met on a hayrack ride out at old Spaldin;J's orchard arxl I was going steady with a boy who lived arourd the comer fran me. He was there with one of the girls from down at the church who haR_:)el1ed to be a friend of mine. She introduced us ani he never took his eyes off me all evening arxl when I came hane that night I said, "Whew, is R:tyllis mad at me." Mother said, ''Why?" Isaid, ''Her date didn't take his eyes off me all even:in.;J arxl :Ehyllis was just fit to be tied.11 (laughter) 'Ibis was on saturday night and M'Orday mornirg when I came out of my first class he was waitirg. He'd fO'llll:i out what my schedule was ani where all my classes were an:i he was waitirq outside the door of eNery c1assroan as soon as I came out. Why he nust have sprinted and went fran that door to the next. Q: Hclw' old were you then? A: sixteen. It was just a few weeks before Pearl Harl:::lor, 1941, and our first date was for the senior prcm. He was a mid-year graduate. He was graduatirq in January of that year arxl that was our first date,the senior pran.. 'lhen we went together off arxl on, not steady, I wasdatirq other fellows too. one time I was datirg three different fellows an:i he said, ''Well I can see what you see in so an:i so, he's anice t:;J~.I¥, but I don't understand why you are dating Eddie." But anyway we dated off an:i on for about a year and then he went to sm:vice an:i we corresponded all the time he was gone ani we gotmarried about two weeks after he got back. so really the courtship was Il'OStly by mail. Q: well that's kini of a nice ~. A: well we got to knc:M each other very well in our letters and we have been married for thirty-six years so I think we've grown up. we 'l'fleJ:'e married in Olrist Church by Jerry Wallace and we haven't talked about the rectors. Jerry Wallace, he was here for twenty-five yearsand he left alJout six nart:hs after he married us in 1945 and he was a part of everybody's family. I guess the best way to describe it, every family in that parish felt that Jerry was a part of their family. He 'WOUld drop in, cane out and sit down at the kitchen table and visit while you made soup or whatever you 'l'fleJ:'e doirx} and he was just as casual and as much at heme you knc:M. You never felt like youhad to entertain Jerry in the parlor, he felt like everybody, come on out in the kitchen. He was just that ki.rd of a person ani he was a dearly loved man. of people? Q: I have heard not:hirg but good. A: He was a worderfu1 person. Q: How did he fit with the very old-line, reserved, dignified group A: well it was funny. A1Jtx)st the first stoey I heal:d told about Jerry was when we qat here in the fall of 1937. 'Ihe presidentialelection had been lll the fall of 1936 just the year before ani it was still fresh in people's mind and this was when Alf I.andon ran againstRoosevelt. well Jerry of course came frc:m Arkansas and he was a Southern Democrat. Most really all of his parishioners 'l'fleJ:'e Republicans. In fact Alice Ianick at one tine said, "Alice is a Democrat," but Fred Buckstrc:an said, "'lhere are no Democrats at this ch.urch except that sb.lpid Alice Ianick." But that's allnost truth youknow. I don't think it's so IlDlCh. so I'10W' l::JUt it used to be there were very few deloocrats at Cllrist CllUrch and maybe none at the time that Jerry was rector. So Pascal Hatch, Who was the biggest contributor an:i the senior warden arrived in church one sumay weari.D:J a big sunflower in his buttonhole. Q: For Alf I.arxion? A: Yes, ani Jerry glared at it all durinJ the sennon arrl he glared at it as he shook his hard but he didn't say anythin;J. 'Ihe next sundayhere he goes back with a big sunflaver on and again Jerry glared at hlln all dUrin;J the se:rnal an:i when they went to shake bards why he said, "Pascal, I dal't want to see you wear.in; that sunflower again." An::i Pascal said, "And what if I do?" Jerry said, "I'11 hang a vote for RcOsevelt in this p.l].pit." And so Pascal showed up the next 8\.lmay withalt the sunflower. He was such a deloon. He was quite a man. He got alon:J fine with everybody. Dwight Greene came to Cllrist Churdl when he was govemor and that was when Jerry was there ani he thought so highly of Jerey that When Jerry was leavin;J he qave a reception for hiJn at. the governor's mansion. He got alorg with everyone but one of the reasons he said he left was the he was hearingOlrist Church referred to as Jerry Wallace's CllUrch ani people would address mail to hlln addressed Jerry Wallace, Spril'gfield, Illinois. He would get it and he said, "I just decided that if a man had been there so lorg that the church was described as not everybodys 1::ut as Jerry Wallace• s church that he had been there too long." So he went out to 'I\lcson, Arizona am he was at that church for twenty-five yearsbefore he retired ani they loved hiin too. Q: What was Mrs. Wallace like? A: '!hat's interesti.ng because I remember Mrs. Wallace as a sort of dumpy little woman and that's all I remember about her. If she had any personality it was lost on ne. Have you heard anybody say much al::x:Jut Mrs. Wallace? Q: '1he only person 'Who said very much about her was Mrs. Stericker ani apparently they were quite good frierx:ls. A: I just don't really remember much about Mrs. Wallace. I mean I remember what she looked like. She had three sans and In¥ older sister dated the older son for awhile. He was a very good looking young man. crime and the vice and corruption in Springfield? Q: What was his name? A: Jerry, ani then there was Billy and Ardy. Q: Do you remember when Jerry Wallace was fighting against all the A: Well I can remember one tilne during a mayor 1s race when he got upin the pulpit and he said we had two crooks running for mayor and he didn•t see how' an honest person could vote for either one. Q: Is that all you can remember about it? A: Well that's all I can remember. You must realize that during those years first I was 1dni of yc::Rm;J ani I had my mini nDre on the boys in the choir, and then I was away at school. Q: Did you go to college too? A: No, I was in nurses training, I got married an:i six months after we got married he left. So I remember him very well as a person ani I remember all the business an:l of course I still remember same of the th.i.n;Js aln¥Jst ve:tbatim that he said in our prenm-ital counselirq and th.i.n:Js like that. But I donIt remember his crusades although I do remember he got awfully hot urrler the collar about Sprin;Jfield politics because I do remember there one tilne when he'd be absolutely thun:iered at us that they were all crooks. Q: Do you remember who was runni.n;j? A: Buddy !(a~ was one of them b.l.t I can•t think of 'Who the other one was. But he was a 'WOMerful person and then the next rector we had was John Hauser and John was a marvelCRJS preacher. He was a great one for goin;J out an:i calling on people an:l getting them in, he was a great organizer. He was the one who organized the SUpper Club that was so successful am he would go ani call on a young rouple arrl w::ge them to cane and ~but he did not do pastoral counseling. presume he did premarital counseling because that's required. But I was really having some serous problems during those years he was there ani I trim to go in ani talk to him ani I'd get the subje::t changed ani fini myself bowed out. It was a real problem for me if I oouldn't go to my priest. rater, after he left here, he was in Chester, Pennsylvania ani my brother-in-law who is a priest was his assistant. He had met Fred. when he was haoe here for visits ani he'd been :inpressed by him ani so he called him to be his assistant there. It was a very good postion for Fred. because it was a big church ani a great opportunity but Fred. said he told him he should make so many calls fiNerY aft.e.rnc:x')n and Fred. said, ''Well it's rather difficult to get that many calls in if anybody has a problem they want to talk to you about," and. he says, "If they have a problem they want to talk to you about well c1.'lar¥;Je the subje::t ani then leave." Fred. says, ''Well what are they ~to do, make an appoinboent to come into youroffice?" He said, ''No, let them go to a psyd.liatrist. 11 En:i of Side '1\«>, Tape one Q: So artJW8.Y Hauser said • • • A: No, he said if they neecl counseling they should go to a psychiatrist, that•s not what we are in this business for. Of course that's quite a contrast between he ani Hoby who spenis most of his time counseling. But the funny thing is that the church grew and. boaaed urder Hauser ani it certai.nl.y isn't now. An:l I don't k:now' whether, if you have problems you want a minister who will counsel you and be there when you neecl him. If you're going to grow you have got to have a minister like Hauser who goes out ani beats the bush and brin;Js people in. I don't really knc:M what the answer is. I think maybe the answer is when you have two, you should have one that does the counseling an:l one that goes out and. beats the bushes. Q: Qruck is doing a pretty good jab of this. He's bringing a lot of things together like the prayer ani Bible stuclies an:i things like that an:i people are really iDpresSEd with that. A: Well people who did not have any problems during those years that they wanted to talk to him about, remember Hauser very fondly. Also he was good in situations where he saw an obvious need such as a death in the family or thi.Igs like that. People who had a mther or father or scmeone in the fa:mlly die will say he was right there you k:nc::M and he was so oanforti.nq but it was for things like that only where he saw an obvious need. Q: or that he considered a pastoral role? A: ~!bat he considered a pastoral role, yes. Pastoral counseling that is being done today is very different fran that. so he was only here about five years and it was probably just as well because anybody who followed Jerry Wallace wouldn't have satisfieli people too well. Then 'We qat Bill Jacobs ani Bill stayed thirteen years. Bill was a good rector. I had my differences with him fran tilne to time but he was a good man. He was a good administrator. He had three se:tVices on SUl'Xlay nmnin:J an early service, a family savice at 9:15 an:i then a late service at 10:45 an:i the church was full for all three of them. He still had to have two sunday SChools, they had sun:Jay SChool at 9:15 an:i again at 11:oo because he had too 1'1\al'lY kids for SUrday SChool :t'OCmiSo Q: Is that when they built the new S\lmay SChool? A: No they built un:ler Hauser. ihe rectory was built durirg Jacob's time. He was great. Now when my Becky was born, she was an Rh babyani when she was first bom they said she was all right. She looked all right an:i the blood tests came back fran the lab that she was all right but the lab made a mistake. When she started tu:rnin;J yellow in the middle of the night they called the lab to cane take another blood sample ani they fOlli'd out she was an Rh baby, eryt:hr blastosis. Bill Jacobs came out an:i he prayed with me an:i came back the next day an:i he brought me cammunion an:i he was a tremen:ious oanfort. I don't know' how I could have gotten through that week because he was so ki.n:l. 'Ihe doctors decided not to transfuse the blood because she was only five pc:l.lnds and in a tiny baby like that the blood exchange can sanetbnes cause cerebral palsy. So it was just touch-an:i-go for a whole week while her blood oount was really low but it just sort of hovered, it wasn't at the crucial stage. It was critical you knc:M they had had to do SOll¥!t:hing but it was low enough to be worried about. All that week Bill came I don't know llarl many times to pray with me and was a great ocmfort. By the errl of the week her blood count started going up an:i she was alright. But I don't knc:M heM I could have gotten throughthat week if it hadn't been for him. Many people, Eloise Grilnes said when Mother died he was there before they brought her to the funeral hane an:i he was a good pastor. 'Ihe biggest mistake that Bill Jacobs made was that he decided that he needed an assistant an:i Har.ry Haydis was one of the IOOst controversial people we ever had at Cllrist Church. I don't know how Im.J.ch you've heal:d al:x::Jut Harl:y. Q: I don't think I've heaJ:d. really a whole lot. A: Well he isn't ta.1ked about very much. In many ways Hany was a wonierful person but he got a following which was the source of his problem with Bill. '!he Han:y Haydi.s devotee's were absolutelydevoted. I mean you knc:lw he was the one who trained SUnday SChool teachers ani he was the one that -worked with the Program carmnittee. It was under Harry Haydis that we had this Program Ccmunittee that met every week and did all the pro;:JLaas for ECW an:i the guilds an:i everythirg0 A: Arrjway, eventually the church was very IllllCh divided ani there were the HarJ:y Haydis foll01'.4erS and the Bill Jacob followers ani it was really a bad situation. At the heighth of it Bill called me into his office ani said, ''Where do you stand, Betty?" I said, "I stand for Q: What was his title? A: He was the assistant? Q: Pastor. A: Rector, pastors are I.utheran. Q: Sorry, I'm not an Episoopalian by upbrinqirg. Christ Church. I would see you ani Harry Haydis :both in hell before I'd see you split this church." He said, ''Well that's an honest answer anyway. 11 Ani he fired Harry eventually ani then not too longafter he left he got a call to Des Moines where he1s been ever since ani he is about ready to retire :now. But this sort of thing happens.Christ Church is not the only church that this has happened in. It happened in my mother ani dad1s church cicMn in Clearwater, Florida soon after they nw;weci down there. My father was elected to the vestJ:y the foll~year partly because he was not on either side ani he was known to be not on either side, he hadn't been there long enough to be on either side. SO these thin;Js do happen. '!bey•ve happened a lot of different places. 'Ihat was a good tilDe for Christ Church in that the church was just, thin;Js goirg on all the tilne, bocJmirg and all these people, just crc::IINds canin:j. But it was a bad time in that we had this division you know. HarJ:y ani Bill, the lon;;rer they "Worked togetherthe less they seemed to get along each year ani the first thing youknow eveeybody was linin;J up on one side and one on the other. SO after HarJ:y left, Frank Shaffer came as Bill's assistant. When Bill left people were goin:J to-well they had a search camnittee ani everything. Everybody was looJd.Ig for a new rector, nobody on the Search camnittee was even cxmsidering Frank Shaffer. Sane of the people in the congregation got up a petition asking them to call Frank. There was so :much gi'OUl'Xi swell support that they did things in a very l.m-Epsicopalian ani denDcratic way they followed the desires of the congregation ani called Frank to be the rector. Q: Was he a good rector'? A: I think he was. I think he was one of the best along with JerryWallace but not eveeybody feels that way. But I loved Frank very :much, he was one of the best frien:ls I ever had. He was the best frien:i outside my husband who I •ve ever had of the opposite sex. I never had a brother, the rest of my family was all girls and I think that Frank was one of the best frien:ls that I ever had in my life. When he died it was like I had lost part of my own family. Q: He died just ••• A: He died of a sudden heart attack. Q: Was he very old'? A: He was fifty-eight I think, he was two years older than I am r'Dii. He died in 1972. Q: '!hen who followed him'? A: Gary Goldacker was his assistant. He had two assistants, Bill Toland was his assistant and then after Bill this Gary Goldacker. Gary was an interim priest for about seven or eight months ani then Hoby was called. Gary stayed on then as assistant for Hoby for awhile and of course then after he left then we've had Geol:ge and :now we have 26 Qru.ck. SO that takas care of all the priests at Qlrist Qrurch back to 1920 when Jerry Wallace cane ancl that was before I was born so youcan't expect me to remember back then. :&It Mrs. Hill told me that one of the priests, ancl she COl1l.dn't remember the name, was so bad that they paid him to leave. Q: WOUld he have been the one that came after Frederick? A: I don't :kn<Jr.f :but they paid him five t'b.ousa.ni dollars which was a t:remenda.ls anomt of money in those days to leave. Q: at 111¥ goor:iness can you imaqine? A: Ani I said, ''Well what was so bad about him? An:i she said, "Oh 111¥ dear I don•t want to go into that, he just was t:e:r:rible." Q: I think, llC7tl don't quote me, ancl I shouldn't even say this with the tape on, but I think he may have been the one that was chasi.r.g". A: Well that was What Harry Haydis was ac::x::used of too. Q: BUt it seems like one of the ones quite awhile back did sanet:h.i.n:J that just scandalized the entire con;Jregation ancl that cor.gregrationcould have affordEd to pay him off. A: at yes, it oerta.inly could have. Q: Did anyone ever tell you about biddirq to be in <brist Qrurch or by irwitation? A: No, you mentioned that the other day an:i I've never heard of that. You had to be irwited. to join the church? Q: Or you were snubbed or made ver.y u:nccmfortable. A: Well yes I can imaqine that. Q: Were there any other facts about the old time church that were int.e:restirq? A: at I was talk.irq about the SUl".W:::ay SChool awhile ago. After you got t.h:J:cugh we had the sections in our awn little cubicle and then they called everybcd.y together in the auditorium, they ra.r:q a bell. '!hey'd rirg a bell ancl then everybody got together and they had same songs ancl a little talk by the superinterxient. The superintendent was Mr. Hamlin. I don•t remember l'llllCh about him except he was bald a.rrl he had twin boys. The twin boys looked just exa.ctly alike ancl they used to have great fun at school by charging' places with each other arrl fooling' their teachers. '!hey were a couple of little devils :but cute as the very dickens. We had sane i.nt:eresti.rg characters there as Sl.nllay SChool superi.nterxlents. '!here was a crippled fellow who was a frierrl of Mr. Wallace's, named Sid Vil::t"Jo. He wasn't even an Episcopalian, he was a Slm:1ay School superintendent. 'nlen there was Vic Verrel, he was a tall lanky guy, an ergineer with CII..ro ancl he eventually went off to set up a po1r1er plant in Pakistan arrl that was the last we saw of him. I don't think we have such colorful SUrx:lay School superi.nt.ements anytoore or even if we do have you 1a1ow you. never see them. Hardly anybody knows who they are but superintendent was very inportant back in those days. Q: 'lhey call it Christian Education 1'lCM don't they? A: Yes, but aeyway nrt first experience tea~SUn::lay SChool was when I was eighteen. As soon as I got out of high school wey Mr. Wallace put me to work. I had a bunch of little girls about fifth grade am then aver the years I •ve taught four year olds am I •ve taught Junior High ani I taught High School. But suroay SChool teaching is not nrt favorite church work so I tern to avoid it as much as possible. Q: I thought at one time of beirg a teacher but after workin::J in the school for three years I said, ''No way." A: well I love teachi.rq on college level out at Lincoln I..arrl but beirg a sunda¥, School is scmet.hi.rg different. You 1alow the kids don't really feel like they have to behave for one thing. '!he four year olds were nrt favorite. '!hey are pretty nice at that age. So I taughtfour year olds 100re than anybody else. Q: Beyord the baby but a little bit urrler school age. A: So that's been nrt smn total of nrt experience with sunday School. I didn't really leam a lot I don't think in SUnday SChool. By the time I became an Episcopalian I had already read the Bible throughtwice. I had an aunt Who saw to that arrl of course in the Episcopal Church if you go to church regularly you get the Bible. 0\Ter a pericx:lof three years you get the whole Bible or practically the whole Bible. You skip sane of those begets and sane of that stuff but you get a gocx:1 portion of the Bible. SO we really do get a lot of Bible just bysitting and listeni.ng on SUnday IOOminqs. Q: I think it's nice that the little insert tabs be Bible selections written out. A: I do too, you can cane hane am reread them and remember then you 1alow. I got m:>re <llristian education I think in nrt years as programdirector. Now this I will say about Harry Haydis. Whatever else he did he was a mazvelous teacher. His Bible class am Frank Shaffer's Bible classes. Frank was a real scholar am so was Harry. I took Bible study classes urrler both of them ani I have never been able to go to Bible study class since because they all seem to be so shallow. With all due respect to Hoby, he just doesn't care ani Clmck-but I don•t think he would either. '1hese man were real Bible scholars ani they were both teachers they were gifted teachers who had a real knack for teachiJ'g you ani really getting you so involved in it that youdidn't walk out of there an:l forget. Everyt:hi.nJ they said sank in. I leamed mre about nrt church and my faith ani just everything havingto do with my religion with Harry Haydis than I have all the rest of my life. It was a tremen:ious growi.rg experience for me. Not onlythat but he opened up my mirxi to the point that that was what prompted my goin:J on to college. He said to me when he first got me on the Program committee, "You have such a marvelous mirxi arrl it is so blank." I said, ''Well, I was sort of insulted.11 But I foun:i out he was right. I really was ignorant aboUt a lot of 1:hi.rgs an:i I was ignorant about a lot of ~reganiin;J my religion an:i about a lot of other things too. He stilllulated rrry Intellectual curiosity and I've never stopped since then. I went on and went to college and got a master's degree and I've never stopped studyinJ since then. Up till then if I had some free time fran tald.rg care of the kids I'd read a murder mystery or scanethin;J. so he did tremen:ious thin;Js for my life ani a lot of people will say the same thin;J about hlln. So whatever troubles he caused in the dmrch there are a lot of people he did tremerrlously good thin;rs for. Q: Have you finished nurses tra.i.nin:(? A: No, you :know in those days you couldn't :be in nurses traini.n;J if you were married and the war en:ied and Wayne wanted to be married so I quit ani we got married. Q: so you had your children when you went back to school? A: Oh yes, I was in my forties when I went back to school. Q: You went to Lincoln lard then BanganDn? A: Yes, ani got a master's degree. Q: Ard what is it in? A: In history. '!hat's what I was interested in. You can't make a livirg with that. I did teach one quarter at Lincoln lard, one of the history teachers was on leave of absence and I taught one quarter at Lincoln I.and ard thOroughly enjoyed it. I taught "History of western Civilization" but I was just filli.rq in for a man who was on leave. Q: Have you ever been aJ;PrOached again? A: Well no they sent me a questionaire once in awhile wanting to know if I'm still interested but they don•t have any ~. Q: How about Springfield COllege, have you ever gone to them am applied? A: No, I really don't want to, I don't want a job. Q: You are enjoyirq your education. A: I enjoy havirg my education. It broadens me. It was fun getting it and it's been worthwhile havinJ even if I never make a nickel. Ard I think that's always true in education. I don't think any education is ever wasted. In fact many people said to me, "It's too bad you didn't finish your RN." I said, ''Not one thing I learned in rurses trai.nin;J was wasted. I've used everything I learned in raising my family." But aeyway Harry was a ~remarkable man. He came fran an othodox Jewish family ard he fell m love with ard married a girl who was an Betty Ieinicke Episcopalian. His family disowned him am fran that tilDe on he was dead ard he went to the Episcopal church with Ruth but he had no idea of beirg a priest. In fact he said when he felt the call he foughtit. He said, ''Nobody eNer fought it aey harder than I did. I did not want to be a priest. It was only because God wouldn't let me go that became one." When his first wife died of cancer he married a person out in Wyanin::J. He married a religious education "WOrker he met out there, Harriet, I don't know' what her maiden name was. But that was his wife when he was here, Harriet Haydis, and she was a good partner. EVe.t:yone liked Harriet, there was no question. Where sane peopleliked Harey and sc:me people didn't, everybody loved Harriet. She was wonderful ani her field was religious education ani she taught the oonfinnation classes an::i one of the High SChool classes ani she was a :ma:tVelaus teacher. 'the kids loved her, the adults loved her, everybody loved her ani she died about eleven years ago, the last yearhe was here. Q: How many years was he here? A: well maybe five or six I would guess. He had already been fired by Bill Jaaobs but he was still in tarm when Harriet die:i. 'Iheyhadn1t left Sprir~f'ield cause I remember goirg to see Frank the first week when he was there and sayirg we were all so upset because Harriet had died. I needed sane help with this prog:r:am I was tJ:yirg to write and I was so pertur:bed about Harriet that I was not. able to think straight so he helped me with it. 'Ih.en he married·'·a girl who went to Christ Church that he had been counseling with. Her husband sued hlln for breach of promise or alienation of affection. 'lhis is what reallycaused a lot of the problems. I don't think that was so bec:'.ause the husband beat the wife am she had every reason to leave him and I think the marriage was dead before the rananoe developed between her ani Har:J:y. Her marriage was dead and Harry's was dead before everythi.rq but her husban:l sued anyway. '!hey went out to Nevada and just a couple of years ago I happened to nm into the Bishop of Nevada, he was at the Diocesan center to see Bishop Hillestad when I was there for a E.c.W. board meet.i1:g. SO I said this friend of our church was out in Nevada ani I was wordermg about him an:i said his name is Harry Haydis. An:i he says, "He has been doin;J marvelous work out there," am I said, ''Well haw is carol?" He says, "carol is the greatest wanan in the world ani she1s a lovely lady." so everyt:hi.n:;J's goin; fine. Q: Was he a young man when he went out there? A: No, he was middle-aged. So he would be about sixty-eight nt:M. (pause in tape) Q: Betty, you have been fairly active in the govemin:J bodies of the church. I know you are on the Synod l'lC711. A: Yes, I was elected to the synood this year, a frieni of mine said they saved me for the big ones because the last time I was elected to the 5ynod was the last tiire they elected a Bishop. Bishop Hillestad was elected. so it's a very interesti.r:g process. Q: Tell me about it. A: '!he first thin;J you get all these resumes. '!his time we~ a great thick book because we had thirty-five suggestions for bishop. You have a picture of all these men am all the relatives ani I don't knc:M how other people did it but I would sit night after night am read these histories ani the letters the bishops thansel.ves had written and tJ:y ani to decide how I felt about them. I en:ied up, out of thirty-five, I had three people that I thought were very good,about three people that I thought were good ani about eighteen that I thought I woul.dn•t vote for under any ci.rcumstanoes. 'lhen the rest were what I'd call the possibles. I woold vote for them under same circunstances. In other woJ:ds it boiled down to a choice between a possible ani not under any ci.rcumstanoes would I vote for the possible. Well it got to be very excitirg this time. We had nine ballots before we elected the bishop and it was very political this time. '!here were definitely two factions. 'lhe high AtxJlo-ca:tholics and what you might call not exactly la.r~ c:trurdl but m:xierates, the ltDderates in the Diocese, ani the t:hirg was that the ArxJlo-Catholics were very splintered. '!hey had a rrumber of can:tidates includingseveral fran this Diocese that they were Sl..1R;)Orting and so they were quite splintered especially in the clergy. You kr1ow how they do this don't you? Q: No. A: Well there are two houses, or there are two orders, the lay order and the clerical order. 'Ihe clerical order consists of all the priests and deacons who have canonically resident in this Diocese. New of <llrist Church people, HciJy had a vote am Ed Grilnes had a vote and Harry Newman had a vote am Bill 'Iblam, who was a member of <llrist <llurch, had a vote. But OlUck Reeder did not although he was an assistant because he is still canonically resident in the Diocese of Ohio. So he was not able to vote for the Synod. 'lhen the lay delegates consist of one to five representatives from each church ani how many you are entitled to is like the House of Representatives, it d.epetx1s on your population you :knaN'. 'lhe larger churches have five and the very small churches have one am everyt:h:iig in between. so Olrist Qmrch had five delegates ani I was one of the five selected at the general meeti.n;J last Janua:cy. Of course at that time lNe had no idea, we knew that Bish.oJ? Hillestrand was ill ani had gone away, but we had no idea he was goJ..rq to resign. At that time he was just going to be gone for thirty days. SO we didn't know there was going to be a bishop to be elected. But canon law says that the regularly elected Synod delegates goilg into a fall Synod shall also be the delegates in case of a special Syncd durirq that year. so I got in on the election of the bishop. In order for a bishop to be elected he has to have a majority of all the lay order votes am a majority of all the clerical order votirq on the same ballot. so as t:hirgs went alon;J it was obvious that l))nald HUllstrani was leac:iirq, particularly in the lay onler. But he didn't have enough to qo over the top ani the candidates for the high church catholics were vert splintered so we broke for lunch after I think it was the sixth ballot. When we came back, Father Malottke, fran over in Jacksonville, sudden:lly began to spurt up ani lNe started inquirin] arourd am we discovered that same them had had a huddle over lunch ani decided that they were goilg to have to back one candidate if they wanted to stop HUllstrarxi. so they were swingilg away fran their other cantidates ani to Malottke and Betty Ieinicke pretty soon it was gettin;J neck and neck, Malottke and HUltstranl, but neither one of them had a majority. So Father Baker fran up at Pekin went over to the Decatur delegation who were backin;J steinbel:g and he said, ''Hc:M len; are you goin;J to stick with steinberg?" '!hey said, ''Well I think another ballot or two." He said, ''Well don't you see what is ha~ People are swirgin;;J, the high church faction are swin;Jin;J fran their individual cantidates over to Malottke. If you wait nDre ballots, stick with steinberg one nDre ballot you are going to have Ma.lottke for your new bish.q).11 Father Hall said, ''Well we wouldn1t let that ha:r;:peno II He said, 1'Well yotlId better start thinking about switching on this next ballot.11 So they got in a huddle and when we took the ninth ballot they had swurg fran steinbel:q over to Hullstrand and that p.It them over the top, just barely. He had a bare majority in the clerical orders and all the clergy ani doctorate weren't there. sane of them because of illness or various other reasons were not able to be there so actually he had less than half of the clergy of the Diocese that actually voted for hiln. It was a majority of the ones there and votirg bJt it was less than half. SO the man has got a large J:'OW' to hoe when there is clergy around bJt he did a good jab last week down in Alton. At the regular Synod he was a guest. He is a very chal:mirq man, very frierxlly ard open ard same of the priests who were most distressed about his election were begirming to ccme arcuni. '!hey's say, ''Well maybe we can work with this bishop after all.11 But he is not high church and you 1a'low this is known as the Ber.retta Belt. '!his is one of the really high Dioceses in the COlU'ltry. As a matter of fact Clrist Church often talks about being a lew church but we are high cx:atpared to the average EpisCXIpal Church if you oonsider the whole country. Q: Oh really? A: 'Ihat's right, we are high oampared to what they are in most of the east ani a good part of the midwest, Ohio, Missouri, all around us, except north of us. Up north, Wisoonsin ard through there, that's also a part of the Berreta Belt. But the three Illinois Dioceses an:i the Wisconsin Dioa!SeS are mostly what constitutes the Berreta Belt, this very high An;Jlo-catholic section. So Clrist Church really is only lew by starrlards by the Diocese, it's not low by churches all aver the COlU'ltry. Q: well what would make it lower? A: What would make it lower? Well for one thing they would only have camnunion once a m:mt:h, they'd have m::Jming prayer at the other savices. Q: For the lew services? A: Yes. Q: Because we have OCilUlUll'li.on wery third sumay at the early savice. A: '!bat's right ani in a really low church the nonnal. savice is m::Jming prayer and OCilUlUll'li.on is satet:.h.irg you do just once a m:mt:h or on special occasions, you 1a'low occasion like Clrisbnas, Easter, etc. Probably there would be churches where there wouldn't be candles on the altar. Q: Like Cbrist Church used to be? A: Like Cbrist Church used to be am it probably wouldn't have acolytes, especially not red robed acolytes. Q: When do our acolytes wear red robes, usually they have those white ones? A: '!hey have the red under the cassock then they wear the white partof the frock. Q: What do they wear in the other churches, black? A: '!hey don't have acolytes. You knc:1ll it's interestin;r they have them in the I..utheran Church a lot arrl other churches now but a law Epicopal Church, a really lCM Episcopal Church is bani to tell from the Methodist except for the Prayer Book. Q: Well now I've never been to a Methodist Church? A: Well of ocm:se they are get:tin;J :more like us ani everyb:dy is getting more alike. It's funny, -we go over to st. Aloysius to a wedding or sanethin:r arrl we see a lot of hane because things are just so similar now that it doesn't make arr:t difference what church you go to they are all a lot alike. In fact if you really want to get all the cerE!llD'ly am the incense arrl everyth.irg what you have to do is goto the Episcopal Church not a catholic Church. '!he high Episcopal ChUrches are higher than the Ranan catholic Clmrches these days as far as all the ritual etc. Q: Well now the cathre::ial Church is • . . A: Yes, I don't think it's as bad as sare of them in the Diocese am there are sane where the chanting an1 the incense is just out of this world but really we're beginrrl.I:g to get mre am :more low churches. Christ Church can't say it's all alone. At this last synod theyapproved the starting of a new mission over in Decatur, st. Ti,m:,th.y'sMission, and it is to be a law churc:h. 'Ihe people who started it are dissatisfied with the high service at st. John's in Decatur ani so they want the 101r1 service am the Synod approved am in fact even gavethem sane ncney to get started on. Erd of Side One, Tape Two Q: So you see quite a movement towards the law church within the Episcopal Church itself? A: Well I think that the Episcopal Church in general has always been law. '!here was this OXford movement in the late 1800s and it especially took hold in these Dioceses that I nentioned in Illinios and Wisconsin and this is where the high church developed. Q: Where did the word Berreta acme fran? A: Well that little hat is the Berreta. You know, you've seen catholic priests wear them on their heads an:1 sane Episoopal priests wear them too, but mostly high church Episoopal priests. '!hat's the Ber:reta an:1 that's why they call it the Berreta Belt. Q: Oh that's what caused Qu-ist Church to be founied was the OXford Movement and the reaction to it. A: Yes, that's right. 1hey p.rt candles on the altar at st. Paul's and they thought that was too Popish ani so they started their own church. Well I thought the incense was qettin;J too thick aver at st. John's and that's W'ey the people in Decatur are st:art.irg st. T~'s. It1s pretty much the same sort of thing. But on the whole the Ep1scopa.l Cllurch in the United states never did go high. Many, many lOW' ch.urch Diocese will have one high dru.rd'l. Like in the Diocese of Missouri, it's Trinity Church in st. Louis, which is the high church. But in this part of the country it's been a case of maybe there'd be one low church, like Cllrist Church was the low church in the Diocese of Springfield. Well now you are getting more and more a leveling off where very, very high churches are in the minority. I think there are still a lot of very, very low churches arouni the country but the m:derate, the haWY medium, is becc:ani.n:J more and more the th:i.n;J in the church. '!here are not so much of the extremes. Q: In other words Cllrist Cl1urch is nr:M on the vanguard of what is going to be cam:ini? A: 'Ihat is right, a little bit of ritual but yet a sinple service and ~I?is not the issue that it used to be except in Diocese like Springf1eld. In fact in very fSII parts in the country is churchmanship an issue at all. It's only in a Diocese like Springfield where the diehards of the Anglo-Catholic movement have dugin under bishops who at sanetimes have been very sympathetic to them you see or do have them really fightin;J over chu:rctm1anship. Q: What is churchmanship? A: I..aor church, high church. It's very rare for saneth.irg to happen now such as~in our Diocese, a special Synod to elect a bishopwhere the factions were divided on the basis of churchmanship because this is not an issue natiatWide. It's only in Diocese like ours that's still a issue and I was tnily amazed. I didn't ever dream that we would elect anything but An;Jlo-Catholic bishops. All I wanted was to have an Arqlo-Catholic bishop who would be frien:D.y as BishopHillest:an:i was frien:Uy and Bishcp Chambers was frierxlly. But BishopClough, who proceeded them, was not frierdly at all. Q: An1 he was high church? A: He was very high church yes. Q: Ten:ting towal:ds a nora catholic service? A: Yes, but he didn't think that Christ Omrch had any business even existirg in his Diocese. He was ver.y l.mfriendly and so it caused a lot of problems. Q: Well nat~ how was Bishop Hillestan:i? A: Bishop Hillestand and Bishop <llanibers were :both • • • Q: High ch.urdl? A: Very high church, ver.y Arglo-catholic but ver.y friendly towards Christ Qmrch. Q: Do you t.hink the fact that our ch.urdl cantriubutes the laxqestportion of their budget has a.nyt::h.iig to do with? A: It probably did but I think they were just mainly men of goodwill. Q: Oh I knew Bishop Hillestand and he liKJSt certainly was. A: Yes, I'm sure that they did consider the practical side of it too. Q: so what do you think this new man will be? A: He is not an Anglo-catholic. He is broad or m::xiera:te cJ:nn:chman and it ought to be ver.y i.nte:restinq to see how things develop but I think he is a go-getter. I'm told he was really sw:prised. at the few I'Dl11tlers of Epi.ScDPalians in this Diocese and the large geographical area. It was quite a shock to him to find. out that Christ Qmrch was the laxqest church in the Diocese because we only have got half the members as his parish that he is leaving in COlorado. I think he can see there is a great deal of roan for gn:'IWth and I think he will work hard on helping us g:t"CW'. I expect good things. Q: A very friendly person? A: t2l. yes, very warm, very friendly, he was a product of SWedish Il.tthsran. Q: t2l. boy what a c::J::large. A: He had a very interesting, he says It's not so urrusual up in that part of the cx::amt:t:y, he ccmes f:ran Minnesota, to find. a Episcopalian SWede. He said that in the old count:ty the Bwedisb. lJJ.theran Omrch is in CCIIIIILD'l.i.a with the Anglican churc:h but in this cx::amt:t:y thing gotkind. of sloppy and they do have bishops but they've lost the apostolicsuccession scmewhere alorg the line. so in this cx::amt:t:y t.hsy have not been in CXIllllllnion with the Episcopal Church but alorq the latter partof the 18th century the Episcopal Qmrch in Minnesota, Wisconsin and arou:rd. through there had this big drive, what they called the Mission to. the SWedes. '!hey set out to convert these SWedes to the EpiscopalChurch and they were very suacessful. '!hey converted Whole congreqa.tions. '!hey would just change their church to an EpiscopalChurch and a Whole con:Jreqation would co.rt¥a over. An:l he said there are a lot of churches up there that are J:l.Oifl Episcopal Olurches, 'Whic:h were once swedish lutheran Churches. Most of the people Who go to it are swa:tish people. I:Ut he grew up in a swa:tish Lutheran O:rurch. that was still I.utheran and converted to an Episcopal churd:l sane Where alor.g the line. I:Ut I tl'lcu;:Jh.t that was interestirq. Now BishopHillestand was not a b:>m and brought up Episcopalian either. He was Eval'gelioal Reformed, I think a Gezman-type of OlUrch that is active up there in Wisconsin. Q: Bishop Hillestarr:i was from Wisconsin? A: Yes, he was from Wisconsin. Q: And. this man is fran Mirmesota via COlorada. A: well he•s been in several different areas. He was in Ohio for awhile, but Minnesota was where he was bom and brought up. Q: What is his name? A: Donald Hillestarxi. Q: SO -we'll get to meet him soon? A: well, I imagine he and his wife will be back in Springfield to househunt. I:Ut I doubt you'11 get a chance to meet him before he canes for his CXI'lSeCra.tion and that will be probably in February. Q: What do you do in a nor.mal Syncxi meetin;J? A: well w speni a great deal of tllne electirq people to t:hings and we have the same sort of division bebr.Jeen the Arglo-catholics and the moderates in electirq a man to a st:arx:lln;r o:::amrl.ttee. It boils down to Father Malottke fran Jacksonville again and a young man named Sidney Breese, Father Breese fran dawn in What they call the CES reg-ionministry. '!hat•s omtralia, Effin;ibam and Salem. Sidny Breese is the only other priest in the Diocese besides Hcby who is a graduate of Virqinia Seminaey. So he is definitely llDderately lOW". It took fourteen ballots before Sidney Breese was elected to the sta:rdi.r.qCCm:nittee which was another defeat for the Anqlo-catholic faction and I •m sure Father Malottke is beg'inni.J:q to feel a little battered and bruised and I don't blame him. I:Ut the wi.rr:h; of change are blCMirq in this Diocese. I:Ut we elected people to the Diocesan Counsel. I was a delegate to the Diocesan o::tmcil and on the first ballot I received nine clerical votes and twenty-seven lay votes which I thought was very good really. I wasn't elected. Hcby was elected to the Diocesan Council on the first ballot. But I was rather pleased with the number of people who supported me because I really don't know that many around. of the people vmo were delegates. I got to lookin;J at the list of the clergy ani besides the clergy fran our CMn churoh probably all the clergy who voted for me were men I've -worked with at churoh ~· '!be others of course didn't knc:M me well enough to make a dec1Sion. It was very interest.i.n:;J. '1hen we speni a great deal of time on the budget and there was a lot of debate as to what should be cut and 'What shouldn't be cut ani there had been an effort to cut the am:::IU!1t of noney given to st. Illke's because many people feel that there is no need for a third Episa:.pU OlUrch in Sprirqfield when there are many areas with a Diocese without. Q: Why do they give the money to st. Illke's? A: It1s a mission church. Mission churches are supported with help from the Diocese. But it was finally decided to contime to support st. Illke's. Q: well they have a very active church, don't they? A: Yes, they do and where st. Illke's orginally was the colored church, it n.ow has a mixed c:xn:p:egation of whites and blacks. What it is, is not a church for Negroes but it is a church for people who are unhappy with the new prayer book. '!hey still use the 1928 Prayer Book and Cllrist OlUrch lost people to st. I11ke' s at the time of the cllan:Jeover. I don•t think st. I11ke' s will every use the new Prayer Book because they flatly refuse. Q: Was that the priest's decision? A: Well that was the priest's decision but the people who have gone over there backed it, yes. 'lhe people who were there and the people who have joined since the new Prayer Books came in. 'Itlat's what they're happy with and they are goin:J to stick with cane hell or high water. Q: How do you feel about the m:wement towards women clergy in the Episcopal Church? A: I don't see anyt:hirJJ wrong with it myself. I have no objections. I think that women have their own special minist.ey, they have things that they can brin;;r to the minist.ey that men cannot. Just as men have ~theycan bring as women cannot and I really think that probably the J.deal situation in a church 'Where you have two priests 'WOUld be to have a man priest and a wanan priest. But I have no objection to having a wanan priest only if I, you knc::w, move to a location where that's what they had. It 'WOUldn't bather me a bit. I think there is no reason why a wanan can't be called to serve her lord as a priest just as a man. I get a little :inpatient when sane of these people as I heard a high Anglo-catholic priest say, "I can't stani the idea of priesteses," which makes it soun:l like pagan custan or saoet:h.irg and it's not that at all. I think the fact that Cllrist had no wanen an'IOl'q the apostles was mainly due to the custans of the day and not beingprejudice against women. Q: Because sane of his most devout follC7tlerS were women? A: Yes,am sane of the leaders in the early church were women but they point to that fact that the apostles were all men am they say, "You see, Olrist didn•t mean women to be priests." Arrl I do think thatIS SO wron:Jo Q: I agree. A: But this is my view. Q: OJ you think it will cause a real problem in our Diocese? A: I don1t think so because I don•t think that Hillestand will offeni by deliberately bringing in wanen priests. I think if a parish wanted to call a wanan priest, I think he wt'IUld say all right an:llet them, but I do not think that he wt'IUld bring in wanen priests am place them as vicars in the missions because he knows the majority of the clergy in this Diocese are opposed am he would not cause a breach deliberately0 Q: Do you think he would prevent or sponsor a wanan to go to the school to be a priest? A: Yes, I think if she could pass all the • • • Q: I knc::M there are two ~wanen in our Parish who would like to be priests. A: If she could get by the stan:tin;J canmittee, I think he would. Now this W!Jy one reason it's important that Sidney Breese was elected to the stan:tin;J o:mnitt:ee rather than Father Malottke because Sid would vote yes for a qualified wanan am Father Malottke would vote no. Ard this is W!Jy the stan:tin;J o:mnitt:ee was so important. Q: Now heM many people are on the st.an:ting ccmuni.tt:ee? A: Oh. let me see I think about four priests and four lay people as I recall. Haby is on the Starrling Camnittee and Father Reed, D.ldley Reed of Danville. I'm not sure who else but the Stan:li.rg camnittee is very inlportant ani this is why this particular election took so many ballots am it was such a hard fought battle because that is in;;x>rtant. Q: So which would you think our stan:tin;J camnittee is goin;J at this point? Where they would allow wanen? Do you think a woman could get by? A: Oh. I don't think they have a majority at this point but if we have a fa~ more elections like this last one we might. Q: so to become a priest they have to pass the stan:tin;J Canmittee? A: 'Ihey have to pass physical ani mental am psychiatric examinations. '!hey have to pass the stan:tin;J camnittee approval ani they have to qet the approval of their priest. Of course the first thing they have to do before they can do anyt:hing else is qet the approval of their own priest ani their vesb:y am then they have to do all these other 1:hirgs. '!hen they become a apostulate. SO it takes a screening process. Q: Do you think that's why one of the tl:lin;Js Hoby's been wor~with ani havin;J sane of the wanen help serve the chalice? A: No, that has 1'lOt:ll.irg to do with it. '!hat was done in the early cimrch am when we adopted this new Prayer Book they went back to many cu.st:cms of the early cimrch that had been thrown out sanehwere along the line, lost or thrown out, am this is one of those. Having lay Betty I.einicke people serve the chalice ani wanen lay persons serving the chalice was a custom that went back many cenb.Jries. Q: To the beginning of the Christian Olurch? A: To the beginning of the Cllristian Omrch for many centuries they did this am. then eventually the Ranan catholic Omrch, which was the only church there was then, became very male-minied I guess you would say am. the priests did evm:ything am. lay people didn't. It wasn't just wanen lay people, J::ut no lay people. 'Ihe catholic church have gone back to having lay people to help serve OCI1IIIIl.D'lion, not the chalice because they don•t offer that. art I was at a service where they had a wcman passing out the wafers. Q: Oh my here in Springfield? ~te radical. Are there a:cy points you think that you knc:w that maybe I have no knc:wledge to ask about? A: Well not about this I think we've pzetty well covered church government J::ut there is one thing I wanted to tell you. We've had eight Bishops of Springfield ani the people of my family have been confirmed by five of them. Now my not:her am. father am. ~youn:;Jer sister ani I were confirmed by Bishop White ani the next bishop was Bishop loring arrl he was only here for seven IWnths men he died suddenly. Illt my husbarxl was confirmed by Bishop I..orinq. '!hen my two boys were confirmed by Bishop ClCRJgh, my daughter was confirmed by Bishop Chambers arrl my daughter-in-law arrl my oldest granddaughter were confirmed by Bishop Hillestad. SO I have three ItDre granddaughters caning up for Bishop Hillestand arrl then we'11 have six out of the last nine. Q: You weren't here for Bishop seymur? A: Heavens no dear that was lorg before my time. Q: I meant your family. A: No, as I said we nDVed to this Diocese in 1937. '!hat was when Bishop White was Bishop. Q: In fact Bishop White was here lorg before your time of being here. A: Oh well yes Bishop White was here for a long time. Q: ]):) you remember him? A: I remember him very well. In fact after he was retired Wayne arrl I went to visit him over in this little house on Walnut arrl he lived there with his daughter. Well goodness yes, Bishop White was the Bishop in 1924 arrl that was the year before I was bom, so I couldn't hardly remember anybody else. art yes his wife had died sane years before ard in retirement he lived with his da~, catherine, ard he had a son was a general in the air force I bell.eve it was, John Dressler White. After he died then his daughter married, she married quite late in life. After she died an::l the family were dividing up the family pieces, his desk arrl a number of other antique pieces were given to the BrinkeJ:hoff heme aver on the gl:'OllDjs of Springfield COllege in Illinois which was beilg restored. It was felt that they should stay in Spr:in;Jfield an:1 they were t.J:yin:J to fUrnish the Brinkerhoff home in the period. Q: '!hen heM lorg ago did he die or did she die? A: Well she just died a few years ago, it was about the tilDe they were startin:J. He died in 1956 but his daughter just died a year or two ago ani instead of dividirv;J pieces up ai'I'IOl'q the nieces ani nep:,.ews ani ~them away fran Sprin:]field they decided that they should stay here in Sprin:]field. Q: '!hat was a nice gesture. A: SO I saw this desk the other night. I was aver to a meetirg over at the Brinkerhoff home. Q: You'll have to point it out to me because I go aver there fairlyoften. A: ItIs in the library0 Q: You kn<::M they got the roof fixed. A: Oh good. 'Ihey did a beautiful jab on that. Q: I was so worried they were going to loose the whole place if they didn't qet the roof fixed soon. A: 'Ihey had plenty of fallin:.l plaster as it was. Q: Oh the whole ceilin;J all the way through are in rack an:1 ruin. A: It's sort of taped together in places. Q: I really enjoy the history of spri.rgfield, it's a very interesting town. A: It is an interesting town an:1 Christ <lmrch is been an .in'g;x)rtant part of it. Q: It sure has, it's had a lot of the people who are leaders in the camnunity as key members. A: Yes it has. Q: I think it's interesting that John Bressmer laid the originalcaJ:petinj? A: Oh yes, he did that an:1 Henson-Robinson were involved too. Q: In the roofin;J too. Am the SChanbachers did the plasterin:] an:1 paintirg. A: Of oourse Bressmers is out of operation anymre. Q: But when you read you have a feeli.rq of stability. A: '!hat's one of the 1:hin:Js I like alxiUt this town. It does have this continuity ani stability. Are there arry other things you wanted to know? Q: What do you think has chan:Jed the m:st drastically in your years with the church ani all the different thi.rgs you•ve particpate in what do you see the biggest charge in Cllrist Qmrch? A: In Cllrist Qmrch there is a lot more dEm::JCracy. When I first came, there was one senior warden ani one senior warden was practically in for life. '!he vestry 'Were elected • • • year after year the same men 'Were reelected ani there was practically never anyone l'lE!W' 1..D1l.ess there was a death. You weren1t even oonsidered for the vestry 1..D1l.ess you were one of the old families. I mean if you were a Hatch, a HathaWay, a stericker or you know fran various very old families. '!his was one of the th.in:Js that Bill Jacobs chan:Jed. Now Bill Jacobs was not very popular with many people as you will see when you and Mrs. SChoerlirg speak. She has a lot of sharp th.in:Js to say about Bill Jacobs. He drove same people away fran the church because he became very dictatorial towards the eni. But in the :begimrlng he had to democratize the church ani he got in the revolvirg vestry and this is what we still have. You can be on the vestry for three years ani then you have to go off a year before you can be reelected. Nc:w same people who are very popular ani efficient are often reelected right away after they've been off a year but there is nothing Wl:'OIJ3' with that. At least this gives an opportunity for other people to be elected ani people who would never "W'O\lld have been oonsidered when I was a child are on the vestry rDN. I was very proud of Cllrist Church for instance when they elected Roy Peterson to the vestry. Roy certainly was a man of great intelligence and influence and highly educated ani there was no reason in the 'WOrld why he shouldn•t be on the vestry except he was black. '!here was no way that cool.d have happened when I was a child. Q: WOUld he even have been allC7.rt'ed to be a member? A: I guess he would not. '!here was one of our sextons who wanted to join the church and I guess he was not allowed to ani that was too bad. Of course there is no problem with it llOirl. Q: Well my husbani would not have been allowed. A: No, he wouldn't have been elected if he weren't a banker, or a lawyer, or a business a.mer that was particularly one of the old families. But this perhaps is the biggest charge, the elections. I don't think the charqes at Cllrist Church in ritual etc. are as great as that. It was done very ~· When I was a child they did have cammmion at the early serv~ce every sumay but they had m:Jming prayer three sun:iays a month instead of just two sundays. Now every secord and fourth we have nDmi.n; prayer but it used to be only on the first sunday of fiNerY m:mth that we would have oc:mmmion. When we first came we didn't have the canlles ani we didn't have acolytes. We did have Eric Green, he1s an old man llOirl, well he was close to a middle-aged man then and he was the acolyte, although they didn't call _j him an acolyte. He wore the plain blaclt cassock am lt.hl.te sw:plicesjust like the choir. He assisted the priest, doin:] the same thirgs an acolyte does, you knc:N pourin:J the wine ani all that every sun:3ay yearin an:l year out. I'm tryin:J to remember just When we did getacolytes. I guess that was urrler Bill Jacobs also. But there were a lot of~took place. But they took place gradually and I don't think they are as dramatic as the cban;Je fran :bein:J a society church 'Where anybody who wasn•t society was out. More or less on the outside to bei.n:J a church where everybody has an equal opportunity to be a leader ~f they had the ability to get the votes. rrhat's a wonderful cl'lal'ge. Q: Yes, it is, I think without a doubt that is the one thinq has been mentioned by evecyone I've talked with. It's what a chan;Je from snobbeey to the veey open, deroclcra.tic, carirr;J sort of parish it's became. A: I love Cllrist Church am I love the :peq>le. I don't know WeyattetDmce has fallen off as Il1.1Ch as it has. I look at my own familyarxi I think pe:t:haps it•s because we are loosin:J the ytJil1')3 people am. that's too bad. 'lhey stay with us l.U1ti1 they qo away to college am. this is one of the t.l1in;Js that was brought up at the Synod too. '!hey had cut college work almost entirely out of the budget an:i Father Hallett who is the Olaplain over at the university of Illinois got up am made a plea to restore the m:mey for college work in the budget. So carolyn Boyd ani I stood up and made speeches. carolyn said her heart was poun:iinq so she could hardly speak, she is not a public speaker and it scares her to death. After the three of us, Father Hallett, carolyn and I had spoken, nobody spoke up to oppose am theytook the vote ani they voted to put it back in the budget. Q: '!hat was good because I :know next year I have one going to school. A: We were very pleased. One of the things I said was that I felt my boys had 'been lost to the church durinq their college years. One of them went to a college Where there was no college work ani the other went Where there was very poor call~ work. '!hey had been veeyactive in being acolytes an:1 active J.n the your:g peoples organizationam being faithful dUlrd1 atterxlers. I carmot say for sure that theywould have stayed with the church if they had been reached by a goodchaplain at the college level but it certainly would have been a chance. Jim's wife of course joined our church eventually and they get there rather sporadically. If there is sanethirg m:>re i.nt:erestirqgoirq on they go there instead of to church. Where Wayne and I would have to think a mnnber of times before ani it would have to be sanet:hin;J very important, maybe a family reunion down in Southern Illinois or sanething like that so we would be gone and miss church on sun:'iay. My ~son-he and his wife were married in the Unitarian C'.hu:rch. Not that either one of them was unitarian but that was the only minister in the city that would many them without pre-marital counseling. She didn't want to bother with it. His wife was brought up as Presbyterian. I asked him if he would be willini to be blessed by a priest and he said yes am so they were. Q: so how old is he nt:M? 42 A: HeIs thirty-three. Q: still not too late. A: Yes, he might, I'm not holdirg my breath. Q: I really appreciate all the tiJne you have given me and the tapesfran Mrs. Hill and the ones you did with Mrs. Sch.oen..in:J, it's been alm:::lst five years ago. A: In 1977. Q: It was in March and we are allnost in March of 1982 so that will give me SCil'l'e different views. But fran your notes it looks like she told you kird of the same stol:y she told me. A: Probably, I would be interested in seeirg if there's aeyvariation. Q: Well I'm working on transcribil'q her's right now because it's hard transcribing and I'm teyi.rg to do that. All I can do is give you a copy. I appreciate all your time an:i your extra help you have given me ani all the help you did with giving me the National Historic Registey forms. A: well if there is anyth.in;J I can do I'll be glad too. I think I spread myself too thin an:i this is saoet.hin;J I would like to get back to if I ever have tilne. Q: Well I'd sure appreciate it if you did scane readirg of the materials if I can get to writing the book and maybe we can have you go through it. I would feel better if saneone who has been there would read it before I would actually put it out to the public. A: Yes, I'd be glad to. Erxi of Side Two, Tape Two
|Title||Leinicke, Betty - Interview and Memoir|
Christ Episcopal Church, Springfield (Ill.)
|Description||Leinicke, member of Christ Episcopal Church in Springfield, discusses changes in the services, form of church government, priests and bishops, conflicts between high and low Episcopal churches, election of women, and the Prayer Book. She also talks about her participation in the church, women's organizations, couples groups, election to the Synod, and membership in other governing bodies in the church and the Diocese.|
|Creator||Leinicke, Betty b. 1925|
|Contributing Institution||Oral History Collection, Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield|
|Contributors||Armbruster, Sandra Britz [interviewer]|
|Digital Format||PDF; MP3|
|Relation||CHRIST EPISCOPAL CHURCH|
|Rights||© Board of Trustees of the University of Illinois. For permission to reproduce, distribute, or otherwise use this material, please contact: Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield, One University Plaza, MS BRK 140, Springfield IL 62703-5407. Phone: (217) 206-6520. http://library.uis.edu/archives/index.html|
|Title||Betty Leinicke Memoir|
|Source||Betty Leinicke Memoir.pdf|
|Rights||© Board of Trustees of the University of Illinois. For permission to reproduce, distribute, or otherwise use this material, please contact: Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield, One University Plaza, MS BRK 140, Springfield IL 62703-5407. Phone: (217) 206-6520. http://library.uis.edu/archives/index.html|
University of Illinois at Springfield
Norris L Brookens Library
Betty Leinicke Memoir
L533. Leinicke, Betty b. 1925 Interview and memoir 2 tapes, 180 mins., 45 pp.
CHRIST EPISCOPAL CHURCH
Leinicke, member of Christ Episcopal Church in Springfield, discusses changes in the services, form of church government, priests and bishops, conflicts between high and low Episcopal churches, election of women, and the Prayer Book. She also talks about her participation in the church, women's organizations, couples groups, election to the Synod, and membership in other governing bodies in the church and the Diocese.
Interview by Sandra Britz Armbruster, 1981 OPEN See collateral file
Archives/Special Collections LIB 144
University of Illinois at Springfield
One University Plaza, MS BRK 140
Springfield IL 62703-5407
© 1981, University of Illinois Board of Trustees
'!his manuscript is the product of a series of tape-recorded interviews conducted by Sarma Britz Al:mbruster for the oral History Office,5anJcmton state University on october 10, 1981. Margaret Reeder transcribed the tapes ani I..i..ma s. Jett edited the transcripts.
Betty I.einicke came to Cllrist Church as a very young child. She is one of its most devoted members. She has been an active participantin all phases of church life including election to the Synod, two of which have elected Bishops, the 'WtllErl's organizations, oouples groups,am membership on the various goveJ:nin;J l:xxiies of Christ Church and the Diocese.
Betty clarifies many questions about the Episcopal Church in general
ani Christ Church specifically such as~in the savices, fonn
of church qovernment, conflicts between high am lCM Episcopal
churches, election of wanen, ani the Prayer Book.
~has a Masters Degree fran 8an;Jan'On state University. She was
inspired to go back to school when one of her priests told her she had a wonierful mirx:1 but was not using it as well as she should. She is an interestin;J narrator, one which is entertaining an1 infonnative.
Readers of the oral histo:ry memoir should bear in mind that it is a transcript Of the spoken word, am that the interviewer1 narrator and editor sought to presave the infcmnal, conversational style that is inherent in such historical sources. Bargam:m state university is not responsible for the factual accuracy of the memoir, nor for views expressed therein; these are for the reader to judge.
'Ihe manuscript may be read, quoted ani cited freely. It may not be reprabnsd in Whole or in part by any means, electronic or mechanical, withcut ~ionin writing fran the oral Histo:ry Office, 5an;Jan'On
State U'niversity, Springfield, Illinois 62794-9243.
Table of contents
Backgrouni • 1 '!he Boys' Choir ani 'lheatre. 5 Pews 6 Church Renovations • 8 WCinen' s Ol:ganizations. .10 I.eadership Roles ani Guilds. .12 Parents. .1.5 Men's OJ:ganizations. .17 SUn:lay SChool. .19 Rev. Jerry Wallace • .21 Rev. John Hauser • .22 Rev. William Jacobs and Assistant Rector Harry Haydis. .23 Rev. Frank Shaffer • .25 Fduca.tion and Harry Haydis .27 Synod. .29 Churchmanship. • • • • .31 Bishop Donald Hillestand • .34 Synod Fonnat • .35 wanen C1ez:gy • .36 Bishop White • .38 Major Qmrges in Cllrist Church • .40
Betty I.einicke, october 10, 1981, Springfield, Illinois.
Sandra Al:lnbruster, Interviewer.
Q: Betty when were you born?
A: April 2:00., 1925 in st. Louis, Missouri.
Q: When did you cane to Spri.rq.field?
A: Well we moved here in the fall of 1937. My father had been offered what he thought was going to be a better position here. But as it tumed out this was the tilne of the depression. 'lhree IOOnths after he came the business failed ani he was out of work in a s~ city. '!hat was the hardest part of the depression for us, those two years in Springfield.
Q: 'lhen he fOI.l!d another job?
A: Yes. My parents lived the first two years of their marriage in
Pulaski, Virginia which is my father's home town, the next sixteen years in st. Louis, ani sixteen years in Springfield by coincidence. '!hey spent the remaining twenty-eight years of their long married life in Clem:water, Florida. '!hey lived there larger than they did any
place else. '!hey were married over 60 years.
Q: Oh that was marvelous. Did they go to Christ amrch?
A: Yes, they both confinned there. Actually my not:her had been raised a Presbyterian ani my father, while he had an uncle who was an Episcopal Bishop, was not really a member of any church ani we children were sent to Presbyterian surx3ay School when we were little. My sister who was very proud of her great uncle who was an EpiscopalBishop, went to the Episcopal