Shirley Kinley Memoir
|Previous||1 of 4||Next|
small (250x250 max)
medium (500x500 max)
large ( > 500x500)
University of Illinois at Springfield Norris L Brookens Library Archives/Special Collections Shirley Kinley Memoir K621. Kinley, Shirley b. 1942 Interview and memoir 3 tapes, 126 mins., 36 pp. Kinley, an administrative secretary at Sangamon State University for the Vice President for Academic Affairs and in other offices, recalls the first 10 years of the University: SSU as a non-traditional university, academic programs, faculty recruitment, the administration, and the first semester of classes. She also recalls President Robert Spencer and the short and controversial term of the first Vice-President for Academic Affairs, George Cohen. Interview by Nancy Hunt, 1982 OPEN Archives/Special Collections LIB 144 University of Illinois at Springfield One University Plaza, MS BRK 140 Springfield IL 62703-5407 © 1982, University of Illinois Board of Trustees Preface 'Ihis manuscript is the product of a tape-recorded intetview ooniucted by Nancy Hunt for the oral History Department of 5an:Jana'l state Margaret Reeder transcribed the tapes university on December 2, 1982. ani Kay Bush edited the transcript. Shirley Kinley began on the 9rouni floor of planni.rq ani creati.rg San;Jamon State University. She began -workin:.J as a secretary for Dr. Robert Spencer, sso•s first p:reisdent, an:l -worked her way up to InAdministi:ative Assistant of Career Develq;:ment Special Projects. her memoir, Kinley relates the stocy of the first ten years of San;Jamon state University. Readers of the oral histocy memoir should bear in :mirXl that it is a transcript of the spoken word, ani that the interviewer, narrator and editor sought to presenre the infonnal, conversational style that is inherent in such historical sources. Sargaira1 state University is not responsible for the factual accuracy of the Inell¥)ir, nor for views expressed therein7 these are for the reader to jUdge. It may not be 'lhe manuscript may be read, quoted ard cited freely. reproduced in whole or in part by any means, electronic or mechanical, without pemissian in writirq fran the oral History Office, ~ state University, Sprirqfield, Illinois 62794-9243. Table of Cattents Introduction to San;JanDn state University • 1 'Ihe First Semester. 2 GeoJ::ge Cohen as Vice President of Academic Affairs. 4 '!he First Day/First Week. 6 Rscrw:bnent • 6 Respect for Faculty • 8 Creatir:g Innovative Academic Progl:ams • • 9 wor:Jd.n;J With George COhen • .11 0 COhen's Termination • .13 'Ihe "Blue Menw:J" .18 'lhink Tank sessions • .19 Personal PerceptialS of the New Faculty Members • .20 cnmmmity Support .21 0 Floppy Hat Day. .22 Move to the Present Qmpls. .23 Bangam:m. state university~ system. .24 student caxposition • .25 Jctm Kaiser • .26 Sit-Ins ani Ron Ettirger. .28 Dr. Spen::er's Resignation • .30 career Develqmettt Special Projects Assistant • .32 Shirley Kinley, Deoember 2, 1982, Sprin3f'ield, Illinois. Nancy Hunt, Interviewer. Q: Shirley, when did you first hear a1::lo..lt 8angainon ani ~twere your first reactions to the place? What were your first experiences in canin:] here an1 getting a jab? A: I first learned ahout it in the summer of 1969. In the newspaperthere were all :Jd.ms of stories about 8angainon state University ani the new president they were seekin:J. Ani when I read in the newspaperthat Dr. Spencer had been selected as the new president in Sl.lrday1s paper, why sunday night I wrote a letter ani told him I had worked at sru and had really enjoyed 'WOrkin:3' aro.md students arrl when he came to Sprin;Jfield I wa.Ud consider it an honor to be considered a can:tidate. I received a response back fran him by 'Ihursday of that week sayingthat he would be in Spr.in;Jfield an TUesday of the next week. Q: 'Ihis was in August? A: August of 1969. I can backtrack, August 12th was the day of myinterview so it was the Sl..n'Day before AugUst ahout August the 1st when I first read his announcement am wrote him a letter the same day ani he had it back to me by the 5th or 6th sayirg that he lllO\lld be in tam on the 12th ard if I coold cane in to see hiJn he would like to talk to me a1:1out it. So I went in arrl he explained to me all about the new University an:i how it was goirq to be a mud pile for a lon;J tilne but it was going to be excitirq and he asked me if I knew what a utilityinfielder was. Which I didn1t at that time, so he explained that. Q: What was a utility infielder? A: '!hat's saneone who can fill in t:hrot..J;Jhcut the field, like in a ballgame, who can play first or third, shor'tstq> or field ani so he said that1s what he was lookirg for at that point was saneone who had skills who could fit in where they were needed until he got a chance to really take a look at what he was doi.rq ani get his office o:rganized. I told him I really di.dn1t care where I worked just as len.; as I cail.d work at the university. Q: Ycu lived in Sprin;;rfield at the time? A: Rochester. Q: Ani were ya1 world.rg at the time? A: Yes I was workilg for the Department of Mental Health with the state of Illinois at the time. Q: In what position? A: I was the secret:a:cy to the Zone Director at McFarl.ard Zone Center, the Dep.1ty Zone Director, nat the Zone Director. Whenever I got ready to leave he talked. all about the university. Of course he was reallyexcited al:x:ut it ani I was excited about him because his ent:husiasm was just oveJ:.'Whelm:in. Q: Do you remember specific t::l1in;s that he said about the university at that time, certain t::l1in;s that struck you about hew he descril:led what the University was goi.rg to be all about? A: He had a map of the canplS ani he told me what it was goi.rg to be like and how by the time 'We mved out here there 'ID.lld be not:h.ing but mud and 00l'1Sb:uction everywhere ani that it was goi.rg to be exciting to start fran scratch with no programs ani 'We'd develop our own pJ:Ogram and it was a really unique C'l);'lPOrtunity to be involved in samet:hil'q like that fra:n it's very conception. Q: Arxi at that time it was planned that the move to the mud pile 'ID.lld be in a year? A: Right. Q: In the fall ani the first academjc year 'IDlld beqin at that point. A: Right, in 1970, we'd have our first students on this canplS which we are on rrM, in August of 1970 am then later they acx::epted it was Septeatler not August, the :buildin;Js we:ten•t quite finished when we gat ready to move in so we rented. spaces in the united Methodist ctrun:.:b. I believe it was for classes. We had offices in the Myers Build.in;;r and started off on the 8th floor ani then we want to the 6th floor arxi the loth floor. 'lhen we spread out to the old Osco buil.d.in;;r, or the Penney's buil.d.in;;r, I have forgotten. Q: Where was that? A: It was in the middle of the block on Adams, it was down one block fran. Myers Brothers. Q: on the sa.rt:h side of the square? A: In the middle, I can•t remember. I think that's Adams and it's in the middle of that block. 'lbere's nr::NJ a mall there. Q: Right, so there was office space there as well? A: Well not in August, we expanded there, 'We had offices right across the street fran. Myers Brct:hers too, I can't remember what buildi.rgthat was. 'lbere was an old drugstore right beside it and a restaurant an:i w had our admissions office there on the first floor. 'lhe other administrative offices wre up on the lOth floor ani then above the OSCo store, that is the 0sco buildi.rg, they still have the OSco store th.ink. Arrjway after the end of the inte:tview he had me talk to Marcella Ml:r:IhY who was Dr. Matsle:r's secretaJ:y am she asked. me hew lorq I had been working, hc:7,q nany years experience I had, what my current civil sm:vice title was. '!hen she said, "I'll tum you back to Or. Spencer." So he was in a hurJ:y to catch another meetirq arxi he walked me out arxi he said, "Well then I'11 see you on 5eptember 1st.11 I says, "You mean I've got the job?" Ani he says, ''Why yes. What I need you for is the skills that you have ani you can get me organized." Q: And what were those skills that he was lookirq for? A: saneone who was a good organizer1 could get alot'¥1 well with different personalities, was easy goirq ani had good administrative skills, good organizational skillsI good typi.rg skillsI shorthan:i skill, just an all arouni girl Friday. He was lookirq for a utility infielder who could fill in wherever he needed saneone. so I asked him not to p1t it in the newspaper because I was on vacation at that t:i:me ani I was supposed to have left for the lake of the ozarks that weekerd that I got his letter telling me he would be in town on TUesday. so I postponed my vacation, was leavirq, in fact my husban:i ani son were waiti.rg downstairs in the oar with :my suitcases loaded. we were leavi.rg as soon as I got out of that interview. so I told him, "I'm leavirg on vacation today arxi I won't be back until next week so I would appreciate it if you wouldn't make art:/ announoement." I Jmow everytb.i.rq al:x:ut the university hits the p:!per but I said, "I would awreciate it if you1d keep it out of the paper until I have time to get back ani call my boss because he doesn't even know I was c::anirq to this intel:view because it came up too fast ani he was on vacatim." so he said that was fine, he wouldn't put it in the paper for two weeks. well the M::n:Uly I was to go back to work my son was sick so I just called an:i told them I wouldn't be back that day and I'd be in the next day. I had fm:gotten all a1xut tellin:J Dr. Spencer that I would be back to work that next day ani tellin;J my boss so he could have it put in the paper. 5o the day that I returned to work which was one day later than I had expected to, it hit the D'Omi.rg paper and evecyone knew it before I got in to tell hill\. so I fourn that a little bit emba.rrassi.rg. But I had forgotten that I had told him that. so I gave him two weeks notice am then I started on September the 1st ani then it wasn't a full two weeks ootioe that I could give :my current boss. I did work with my ather boss in the evenin:] to get him caught up ani then also Or. Spencer was very tolerant for thin:js that needed to be dale in the daytime that I oould help Ikrl out, my previam boss. He would c::aue up on the lurdl hour ani I want to lunch with him ani tell him the different t1'lin:ls that needed to be dale to get him organized to break in a new secretary. '!hen when he did hire his secretary I 'bxlk two or three lUI'ldl hem's an:i want cut there ani explained th..in;;Js to her. Dr. lacey had told me at the time ••• Q: Dr. Spencer? A: Yes, I'm gettin:J mixed up. or. Spencer told me at the time he was negotiatin;J with a certain person for his personal secretacy am at that time I was very ycun;J ani hadn't any hqles of bein:J the president's secretary, I just wanted to work at the university. so he told me that I CD.ll.d have my pick, when the university did get Shirley Kinley 4 organized. I oc:W.d take my pick as to where I wanted to work. SO as tney filled the different positions, I was introduced to each person of course because I was right there in his office. Arxi I decided which position I wanted but it hawened to be the last position they filled and I was gettirg very nervous because I thought what if that person doesn't want me. Q: You decided by the position then, rather than the personality? A: Yes, I decided I wanted to he in Academic Affairs and at that timeof CXKJrSe we were only hirirg one administrative in each division andthey had hired the Dean of Business Affairs, Jay and theyhired the Dean of Students, Bob McAllister and they had one left, theVice President of Academic Affairs. Well I wanted to be in AcademicAffairs because I figured that1s Where all the action is in auniversity. So they didn't hire him rmtil December and I was gettin:Jvery nervous and in fact my husbani told me there you are lettin:J allthe plum jabs go and you are goin:J to en:i up just bein:J a back""Up secretary in the president's office. Ani I said, "If I am, I am." Sowhen they did hire him when he came in I was waitin:J for him. Q: '!his was GeoJ:ge COhen? A: '!his was George COhen. He came on in about December but not on contract and he was hired but he still had his other job so he wasoanin;;r and workin:J two or three days a week an a consultirg basis andnot f!NerY week. After I knew he was hired and he had a<XlE!pted, I knewhe was canirg in on an early D'Dmin;J plane and I came in early thatm:>ming and I was wait~ for him when he came in. I told him that Iwould like to be oonsidered as a canii.date whenever he began hirin:Jhis secretaries and he said, "I thalght you were workirg for thepresident." I explained to him the relationship was that I was nothired to work for the president other than to qet ozganized and that Ioc:W.d select a positioo or place that I 'WOUld like to be and thenapply for it. SO I says, "SO when you qet aroun:i to hirin;1 I wouldlove to he considered as your secretal:y." Ani he said, "If you weregood enough for the president you're good enough for me and I don•thave to interview-anyone else." so I started workin;J for him the nextday. Q: So up rmtil that t.iJne you were still Dr. Spencer's main secretary? A: NoI because sanetime durin:J that time he hired Virginia Mcore andso I still worked in that office with him but she was doin;J hisoorrespcn:lence and all his personal secretary work. I was 1'lm'e like arecepticrdst than anythirq at that point. I greeted pecple as theycame in and explained t:hin:js about the University and I kini of coordinated fran that level and also see we were hirin:J for people whodidn't have secretaries. Like the executive assistant to thePresident, so I Wt'JUld work for him until he would hire a secretaJ:y. Bob M::Allister, Dean of students, I Wt'JUld wrk for him still in thatone office, in the president's office they may have an officesaneplace else but I did their work for them and helped them set upinterviews with others and this kin:i of thin;J mrti1 they would qet asecretary. 'Ihey were constantly hirin:J, so there was always saneane for me to be doin;J work for ard JOOSt of my work was da1e through the president l::ut a lot of it was done directly with like Bob H::Allister if he wanted satet:hirg done he calld aaoe down ard ask me an:i then I would just do it because that didn't pertain to ~I was doing with Dr. Spencer. So llll& did that for, llll&ll I started in September. september 1St was labor Day so I started the 2m ani it was in J)eoember by the time that I was ~inted to a particular p:JSition. SO that I was just a utility infielder for about four m::mths. Q: Let's just back up a bit I want to catch fran you what the appeal of the l.miversity was for you, why you wanted to work there? A: A university is an excitirg place to work. I worked at SIU before I came to Spr~ield ani it was different. I had always worked for the state or a private insuran::e ccmpany arrl the a~is different on canp:IS. I found it excitin;J just bein;J aro.m:i the students an:i be.inq arot.ll'D professors who I had always idolized, I held them way up on the pedestal. AD:i to work with the president was a dream that I never real.ly expected to cxme true ani I never expected to work with Dr. Spencer when I wrote the letter. All I wanted to do was get on a list to be interviewed when he got his office together ani they were goin:J to be 1"lE!edin;J secretaries. azt I never expected the president himself to hire me. I mean I was waJ..ki.rg on cloud nine. At that time I was just twenty-five ani twenty-five was a yourq age, it's gettirq older nc:M. I mean twenty-five, the ~tyfor advancement are better ncM than they were at that tme. But at that time a secretary really didn•t get to be a personal secretary unless she had at least ten years experieooe. An:i see I had been working for five years, since I was eighteen, so that left me about six. I was for a year off with my san. So that left me about six years experience which wasn•t erDJgh to be a personal secretary. '!hough I had been the personal secretary to the director Of the Q:lunsel.inq center at SIU l:ut that's because there was 11Dre jobs than there were pecple at that particular time that I had aJ;plied. 'lhere were probably three jobs for each applicant at that time. so I just got lucky arrl that's where my first exposure to the university ani to the students. So it was the excitement of satet:hirg new an:i that has always intrigued me to be of scmet:h.in:J when it goes up fran the ground floor. so naturally I wanted to be involved if I calld, with the new tmiversity as it was go.inq up. But it was also the students ani the professors, the general a~of the canpus versus the state office. Q: Did you feel like you were Dr. Spencer's personal secretary for part of that pe.ricd? A: Not really, because while I may have sezved in that capacity, I lmal I wasn't ani I would have been scared to death if I 1d have tha.Jght he viewed me as his personal secretary. Because I didn•t feel qualified at that point to be his personal secretary, because I knew that I wasn•t, arrl I knew I was just functiaU.rq in that role. I didn•t feel the expectations p.zt a1 me to meet those expectatialS that I wall.d have felt were neoessazy. When I came into the office the first day, there was no pencils, m paper, there was a telepn,e arrl that's all we had. Q: Who was there that first day? Who else was hired ani cane in that first day? A: Dr. Spencer was there and Annabelle Patton. Q: And it was three of you, that was the beg'iming? A: That was the beqiminq and we were loold.rq all arourd and said, "Dr. Spencer, there's nothing' in the office, there's no paper, no pencils, no typewriter." And he said, ''Well, I guess ycu'11 have to go get us scme." so I called Marcella and I asked her, ''How do I goa1:x.'M:. requisitiorrl.rg supplies and getti.rr;J scme equipoent?" so she says, ''Well, I'll cu:raJ"'g'e for ycu to d:la:rge SUI;Plies at Jefferson stationers and you just go dc7.m there and get whatever ycu want." so that's what I did. I just made a list of the t:h.in':Js that we needed ani I ma:t:'Chet:i dc7.m there. Q: And you went and ba:lght a typewriter and • • • A: No, w didn't buy a typewriter, we called IlM if they had sane loaners that w calld use. '!hey'11 do that in hopes to get the contract ard then w went through the requisiticn prt.~CeSS. I didn't get irwolved in that too much because a1:x.'M:. a week later we transferred over from the Board of Higher Fducaticn. I don•t krlc:M why ~did the transferrin:;, either they were phasirq out one porticn of their staff or what it was. I don't krlc:M what they were doin] :cut arrJW8.Y they sent over three of their staff ani that was Pearl Mounts, Bob Marsh, and. M:::Doyle, John Doyle they call him r:rJW, he's still here. So John was the one Who did the p.u:dlasin:; and the requisitianin;J and knew all the state z:egulatians which I didn't know. Q: What was that first week like? A: Excitirq. Q: It was still just you ard Annabelle and Dr. Spencer for that first 'Week? A: Now that first week it was just the three of us ani it was so much fun. '!here were so many th.in;Js goin.J en that w had to do that I'd never even thought a1:x.'M:. doirq. It's one t:h.in.;J to say you want to be irwolved. in saoeth.i.rJ;J fran the ground up ard it's another to do it. Because you can•t beqin to carpreh.en:i all the thi:rx3s that you•d expectin an office which is in tm:1 joo that you go into, a job that reallyisn't, it's Cllly there by name. Q: so you were c:teatirg the office ard get1:it:q t:h.in':Js established? A: Yes. Q: And Dr. Spencer was doir.g JOOSt of the hirin;J at that point, the racrui'bDent? A: He was doin:; all of it. As he got D.')J:Q staff like Bob Marshall and John Doyle and w also hired Bob Batson. He was a CXJI1S\.1ltant fran Shirley Kinley 7 ISU, he was ocanin:J aver and that then consisted of a cadre of advisorsthey'd get together and decide on which 8R>lications to brirg in,which ones to brirg for interviews etc. '!hen they1d get together anddecide on Which ones to hire. Q: were you privy to those recruitment decisions at all, did you sitin on those meetirgs and watch what was goirg on? A: Dr. Spencer used to have open staff meetirgs. By that I mean hewanted eve:cybody involved in all decisions and he felt that it wasin'portant because we were so small that evecyone would be involved. Q: In wery decision? A: It wasn't in all decisions l::ut I mean we were privy to it, we wereinvolved in tlle conversations. Now he didn• t ask our opinion beforehe hired saneone, if he wanted to hire saneone he hired them. But allof us were involved in sane };ilase of it. Q: What was your reaction to those recruitJDent decisions ani the kim of evidence that was used to hire saneone ani the nature of the decisions and the kind of people that were hired. Do you have any sort of inpressions about the process? A: I had never been involved in recruitment before in any way, I hadnever :reviewed applications, I 1d never studied resumes or checkedreferences. Q: And you were doirg that? A: And I was doirg that, so it was very new to me. In fact I was the one who was to categorize them. Because a lot of letters came ininterested in workilg for the university. Q: Just general letters? A: General, I mean if they said, "I'm a};l)lyirg for the position of Vice President of Academic Affairs,11 that one was easy hit at leasthalf of them just came in general. ''Here are my qualifications," so Ijust started studyirg them all and categorizirg them. Of ocmse thenthey were looked at again by those doin;J the i.ntel:viewirg so that itwasn1t cnoe I put them in a slot they stayed there and they were stilllooked. at again. But the initial screenin:.J was mine and in the beginn.irg I was just baffled by it all because I didn't 1a'taw how topick out a good application, :but I soon leamed that the faculty pickout certain thi.n:Js, where they went to school was inp:>rtant. I always thought a degree would be great, I didn't realize that if you werelook:inj for an en;Jineer you looked at the tq> school, if you qot anapplication say like fran tlle university of Illi.oois and you got anawlication fran sane other school, even sro you wou1d go probablywith the one fran the university of Illinois, it would be the one thatwould stan:i out. If you had a graduate fran Yale or Harvard oc::rne in,you'd look at that one. You krlow these :because you leam thestan:mrds of the various schools and you knc:M that if they graduatedfran that school, it's not the schools name per se that you hire because he's ftan Yale but because you kr'lc1ll the standards of that school ani they had to l::e qood to get through. So those are the :Jd.rDs of 1:hin;ts. Q: Who taught you that or did you just pick it up? A: You pick it up by doi.rg it but you also learn because sanecne else will say, you kr'lc1ll when you are sittirq in these meeti.IJ;Js, the strorgpoints they pick up. ''Well, this guy is fran Yale," ani we'd always request the placement papers a:rx:i transcripts ani if he made all A's in such ani such. Well listeni:rg to these cx::a:wersations is really how you leam, so that's really how I learned, where you learn it by doirg, but you learn :nDre by list:enirg to what other people are sayirg. Q: So who would be at those meeti.IJ;Js, that 'WOUld be you a:rx:i Dr. Spencer, Amabelle Patton? A: Well George o:il.en came of oou:rse a:rx:i he was in all the meeti.IJ;Js. Q: So even after the time that o:il.en came you still participated in all t:h.oae recruitment events. A: Well I wasn't in all of them, I was not a Jnell'lt)er of the recruitment team. I was just involved in it. I was tryirq to think who was on the team, it was Bc:b Batson, Dr. Spencer and. SallyRobinson, was em-plann.irq team. '!hey loJ&t'e the academic plann.irq team. Q: Ist's see that was Dr. Spencer, Batson, Robinson ani ••• A: And George Cohen. D.lt :before Geo.rge CCi1en came there was SallyRobinson, Bob Batson ani Dr. Spencer. Q: What abc.lut Bc:b Marsh, what was his role? A: Bob Marsh, he was on :ret:~istrar ani he was on the oriqinal. plan:n.in:J team ani then as we got pos~tions, they \<ilel1t into them. Now Batson did not go into a administrative position, he \<ilel1t into faculty ani Sally Robinson She moved away. She's back in town reM but I can't remember ard I don't think she was here em-first year. 'Ihat first academ:ic year, she was there that pl.anninq year, :maybe she was on cxmtract just for the pl.anninq year. I don't renenter l:ut I do :te•e.rti)er she was he1:."e that year. Q: What loJ&t'e ycur inpressions of her arxi Batson? A: Well they were not the typical faculty that I had always held on a pedestal. And how' I had them more reserved ani little gods. 'lbese were just people and I lea:tned that to be true of almost of the faculty that we've hired since that they are not little gajs, they are just peq:U.e. Q: Was that ·because Sar'gaDa'l was scmehow different do you think or was that because ycu were closer to them a:rx:i able to . . • A: I never knew faculty before other than in a classroan ani I was always in awe of their knowledge because of who they were, you know, a college professor was sanebody and they were reall¥ respected ani looksd up to ani I think this has been true up unt1l the 1960s that generally faculty members have always been held in a deep respect. 'lhe 1960s sanehow c.harqed that a little bit. But that's not why mine charged, mine c.harqed because I got to know the faculty as people ani I realized they are people just like me. Q: Yes, I know that feelin;, yes. Did you have aey specific impressions of them though as people? A: 'Well I was really suzprised at them as people, because they were people ani they didn't fit nrt mold that I had pit them into. None of them did when we. bl:O..lght them to campus. I remember the first year faculty was lli.1Ch different than aey faculty as I had them pictured. Most of our first year faculty were yolll'J:Jer ani more nontraditional. Of course that's what -we were looking for but still I wasn't quite prepared for the lorg hair on sane of them ani sane of them were al.m:lS't as yolliJ:J as I was ani I thought I was too yolliJ:J. I remember one time I was expecti.n;J one of our faculty members to cane in for an interview ani I didn't think he had oc:ane yet. 'Ihis yolliJ:J man had CXIIIe in ani asked me directions for saneplace am I gave them to him. Well later Dr. COhen ccme in ani he said, "Did he ever shc7.tr up?" ''No, not yet, the only one that has cane in was a sb.Jient," ani I said, ''He was looki.n;J for saneone else." SO then later he came back ani he was our faculty caniidate. Q: Who was that, do you remember? A: I'm tJ:yi.n;J to remember who that was but I can't remember what that faculty member's name was. But a:rryway Dr. COhen's response to me was, '"'he faculty are goi.n;J to start lookin;J youn;Jer to you," meanin:J that I was gettirg older. Q: Oh that was what he was qetti.n;J at. 'Ihat wasn•t too nice. A: I can't renemher the faculty member's name but I thought he was a student. Q: When you say that what they were lookin;J for was non-traditional faculty, how did that evidence itself other than the fact that there were yourg bearded people wa1.k:iJV in the door. Fran what you caJld sort of pick up fran these recrw:bnent meetinJs, on the one ha.rD maybe they were lookin;J for sort of stringent academj c thirgs like saneone fran Yale rather than sanebody fran you krlow, where ever. COJld you get a sense of what the criteria were for "non-traditional" in this. Q: I don't really think they were looki.rg for non-traditional, they were writi.n;J their academic program at the same time all this was goirg at ani we were teyin;J to fit faculty into our academic programs. SO they were looki.rg for faculty who had teaching experience or other emphasis. Saoe of them we got fresh out of Rl.d prcgrane without a lat of teaching experience other than as teach:ln:J assistants. Am. we were goirg DDre for what we thought they had by what they had studied rather than aoc:x::anplishsd backgraln:is because ItDSt of them 'tNerell1t. Most of them were ~ani I think they were seekin;;J, I don't recall them picking out sanet:hin:J they had done unusual, they may have been that way when they arrived. End of Side one, Tape one Q: I'm qoin;J to switch to the George COhen part of your -work. Haw did your -work day chan;Je as you started workin;J for him? A: It was drastically chan;J:i.rg because he had such a t:remen1ous amc:R.n'lt of -work to do, he was responsible for the recruitment of the faculty, for the writin;J of the programs, develcpnent of the schedule ani catalog, plus recruitin;J students all at the same tilne. Q: Who did he have to help him do that? A: Olllcm Davis, was the main person in the office. Now he did have Ray Best, our Dean of Admissions, but he was nat in the office with us, he was over across the street. we did have them workin;J with us an:l everyone helped. Bob McAllister wrote the section on the students for the catalog and the planrrl.n:J team, Bob Batson, sally Robinson, well I think there were three, maybe it was Bob Marsh were helpin;Jwrite the academic progzatns and CUllan Davis was writin;;r like ccmmmications and Tedmologica.l society, which is l'1C1ttl our Conprnn.ica.tions pr:ogLam. 'lhey've been charged. Just the social order ani that progLam has been :r;:tlased out. So EnviLOIDI&J.ts ani People, is l'1C1ttl Environmental studies ani they were writin;J very non-traditional, very different PLOJLattlS ard then they had to firrl faculty fit those pr:ogums. So we usually started work at seven or seven-thirty ard many tiJnes it was one or two o'clock in the mrni.rq before we'd getdone ani we didn't take lUl'lC'h breaks, usually one of us 'WOUld run across to the st. Nick arx:l get samwiches ani brin;J them back. I reulf!lltler one saturday we were workin;J ani Drena, we had an account aver there Where could just go aver there ard charge it ani then Dr. COhen would settle it up later, ani Drena went over with a huge bigbox. Q: Who's Drena? A: Drena am she came back with this huge big box with all these ~I didn't see how that little girl could carrythat great big box, which she had dale. It wasn't but about a block but that's a laJ;J way to carry a big box full of food ard here she came, of OOJrSe we had no idea by that time what we had co:dered ard what was even in there because they were all WJ:'a.R)ed. so eveeyJ:x:dy just duq in ard got their san:iwiches. But that was aJr normal day. Q: was fran seven-thirty in the mrni.rq until one in the mtni.rg? A: Not one every mmi.rg but that was nat unusual. It was usuallysaoewhere between seven or eight depemirrJ on what we were doing if we could cane to a stq:Jpin;J point or if we were facirq a deadline ani we had to get sanet:hin; out. At that time I was takirg all the dictation, all the writin;J of the pzog:tans an:l the catalogs and we didn1t have a lon:J rarge academic plan at that tilne l:R.1t it was our plan ani statement. so we'd just take it in short:harrl am type it up. Q: 'Ibis would be one person dictatirg to you. A: Just one, the others had secretaries, we had a backup secreta:cy in our office in fact but she didn•t take dictation but she could do the retypes once I got them typed ani they'd look at it ani scratched out and then she could retype it. '!hen CUllan Davis had a secreta:ty too. Q: So it was usually Cohen who was dictatin:] to yoo.? A: Right, well it was mst always COhen dictatin;J to me but a lot of it was written in lorg hard. 'Ihe guys would write in lorg hard because they had different sections that they were world.rg on. 'Ihen I 1d just type it up ani we'd put it together ani then once we got it into sane ocilesive fonn then we would circulate it ani eve:tybody would have a meeti.rg ani they'd discuss it ani then we'd start over again. But that's how it got started with just everyone's ideas and p.tt them together, everyone writirq their CMl ideas ani put it all together and we'd scratch it all up ani start all over again. Q: 'Ibis was particularly for the academjc prcg:tams you':te taJ.kirg abcut? A: 'Ihat was pretty 11L1Ch what I was involved in. At that point I was no lo.rqer workin;J with the president, I mean it was really aJ.m:st two full-tilDe jobs work:il'g in Academic Affairs, so tllere was no way I could work in the president's office. Everyone was workin:J lorg hours. we didn't get paid overtiJDe, no one did but no one even thought anything about it at that point. Ycu knc7.tl everyb:ldy was just oonoe.med that we get the job done. Q: SO there was not resenbnent that you weren•t aanpensated for that? A: No, I really felt like I was contril::utin:;J sanet:hin:J and I really felt valuable and I got a great deal of self fUlfillment out of it. 'lhe only bad part that I felt at the tilDe was the day that I started to work, my first day in the office, was my son's first day at school. Q: '!bat was your first day for Spencer or you're first day with COhen? A: My first day with Dr. Spencer. It turned cut to be my son's first day of school and I didn't get to take him. Q: What was it like to work for Cohen, in tenns of him ani his pe.rsonality and his administrative style. A: well he was ve:ty different than or. Spencer. He was, dl gosh, he was not nice to work for and he was fun to work with. Q: Not nice to work for? A: He was nice to 'WOrk for but he was ilrpa:tient ani 'iNhen he wanted sanet.hing he wanted it now ani his personality, he was :from. the East ani it's not that they're rude but their mannerism is different I think. Q: How so, can you explain that at all? A: '!hey don't take as lll.lCh time for feelin;Js of people involved. Q: 1"'bey'1 mean.ing' people fran the east coast? A: Right ani maybe I'm just generalizin;J but I don't knc1.f what it is but they seem to be different in the way they relate to people but they are abrasive ani I don't think they mean to be. I knc1.f he didn't :mean to be an::l he leaxned. to be less abrasive. Well what's the 'Wt'.ll:d I'm lookinq for to be more tolerant or more aooeptant of 'tl'1irgs because I was 'WDrkinq hard ani he knew' it but if he wanted sanet.hing, he wanted it ani if he had a fifty page report and. he wanted it in a half an hc:ur, he wanted it. NcM he knew he couldn't have it but he would gat, not upset, but anx.ioos is a better 'Wt'.ll:d, ani I didn't feel that as lll.lCh with Dr. Spencer. '!he tw personalities wre justdifferent. Q: Did you have to do your share of t:each.i.rq him that he had to be more diplanatic or did he just leam that? A: I think he just learned it. You leam an the job and. this was his first experience with midwesterners ani mi.dweste:rners are different than easter:na:rs. ~liked him, he was very charJnin;J ani I enjoyed 'WOrkinq with him, I wculdnIt have p.lt in that many hours if I hadn't because he never asked me to stay late, we'd just be 'WOrld.rqand. and then we1d just 'WOrk straight through. '!hen if one of us get llu:rJ;p:y we'd go out for a sardwidl, if we didn't ~:tmrgry we'd just 'WOrk straight through. But :ll'Dit of the time we Just never got :tmrgry because 'iNhen we wre really busy in sanet:h.ing it just doesn't occur to you that it's time to eat. Q: Were you aware, that he was aware that he was dealin;J with mi.d.westerners for the first time, that he was goir:g through sane sort of culture shock or whatever? A: I :knew' he was aware that he was goin:J through a culture shock, I knew it more :from. his wife. Q: How was that? A: Because she said, "'!bey are d.iffemnt here," ani she was right. Q: Did you have muc:il contact with her? A: No, not a whole lot, nat until after he left, 1.D'ltil he was terminated ani then his wife came to 'l::am. He had :t:x:Atght a haDe here and she came to town to be with him mrally. Q: so she wasn•t here JOOSt of the time? Shirley Kinley A: No, she was not here at all. She may have ocme here for a weekerxi or so bJ.t she still lived in New York am he went bane on weekends al:x:ut once a nart:h. Of course on rec:r:uitin:J trips am stuff he was out that way ani he always made a side trip. But she didn't cx::me to Sprin;Jfield, other than maybe once or twice durirq that six m:mths he was here. He was only here six m:mths am she came to tc:wn afterwards ard she was here for a c:x:JUple of m:mths. sunmer time because she didn't have to work in the summer or the kids Q: So he stayed on then as well for that couple of m:mths? A: He stayed in Spr~ield. Q: He stayed in Sprinjfield after he was. A: well they had to sell the house an::l I don't :knc::M maybe it was -were out of school for one t11in:J am. she bralght the kids. So they were here a CXIIJPle of nart:hs before they went back. Q: Ani she would cx::me by the office? A: well no, she came by the office a couple of times l:Jut he was a frieni of mine by that point ani I cared about him a good deal am in any way that I could help him I did l:ut that was separate fran the university. You know like I had them over for dinner am went with them to sh.c:M them different places to take his family am kids just to be a friend so I got to know her that way. Q: What was your urderstan:lirg beh:iM why he was teJ:minated ani how that all develqlE!d? A: I didn't even know there was any problem until I came in one day an:i Vil:qinia M:>rris called me, she said, "I want you to hear it," she called me at bane. Q: Who was she? A: She was the secretazy to Dr. Spencer and there were ~y problems between Dr. Spencer ani Dr. Q::lhen ongoi.n:J l::ut I wasn't aware of than ani then they had been the sense of irritation that I felt fran George Q:lhen. see I didn't know anythi.rq was qoirg on, he was very shm.t ani abrasive a lot of the time but he was also very wann ani gentle, so he was not a bani man to work for blt he was a verydefinite man to work for. He wanted t11itJ3s when he wanted them but there lllliY have been underlyirg problems because I didn't know there were problems between Dr. Spencer ani Dr. Cohen until I was gettirg ready to cane to work ani Vil:qinia Morris called me at hc:ane to tell me that or. COhen had been called in am told not to cx::me back and that was the first I had known about it. Well I was very upset because bythis time I had beaJne very supportive of him an::l we'd spent a lot of time together 'WOrkirg for sanethi:rg, I had listened to him an:i expelled the same feelirgs I was feelirg of all about this place am the excitement of wai:dlirq it grow into sanethi:rg that we had a partin developirg. I knew how much this place meant to him ani Whenever I heard he wasn't qoirg to be a part of it it was like a member of the family. Because that's the way -we really felt at that time. All of us felt like one big family ani that's I guess why we all worked so closely together without feelin:Js of not beirg paid for the time that you worked ani the people wouldn't do that today. I guess that ImJSt have been it because I never even t:haJght about it at the time ani I don•t think Drena did either or any of the others. Q: D:rena was another secretary? A: Drena worked in duplicati.r'g, she's still in duplicatirg. I leamed it when Vil:ginia called ani told me so when I came in I was surprised when I got here because I was upset so I didn't came in to work for a couple of hours. To my smprise, Dr. COhen was there, he came in arrJW8Y. He was very belligerent ani was just an;p:y as he could be and I said, ''What ha~, what was wron;j?" ani he didn•t give me any reason and said he was bleecll.n:J. Q: He said he was bleedin;j? A: Yes, ani anyway my heart really went out for him I just felt so sarry for him ani so then the en:i of that day I was cryin;J. so the end of that day Dr. Spencer called me in his office ani he said, "Shirley, I krlow haw' devoted you were to George COhen and there are 1:hirqs you don't un:ierstand ani I can•t tell you for his -welfare I can't go into this with you. But I want you to krlow it wasn't done lightly ani that I un:ierstand haw' you feel. Ar¥i if you want to take a few days off then that's fine. I krlow you are urXler a great deal of stress right :nc:M and you don't understand the situation. You krlow he's worked bani ani he has and he's got to kn.ow you've worked bani but I would just like for you to be patient ani in time you will understand." Well I never did fini out \~.bat happened. Q: It never came clear to you? A: No, other than that COhen was not doi.r'g -well I knew' there was sane irregularities ani sane of the thirgs that he was doirg he wasn't goin;J ~to the state procedures blt I never got specifics to exactly what he was doirg. He was doirg the jab that I thought he was doin;J but he wasn•t doin;J the jab that Dr. Spencer had asked him to do. So I never did get into the details, George Cohen never told me and Dr. Spencer never did because he felt that was sanst:hi.rJJ that he should not di.soJSS with me and I could respect him for that. Q: What about the rest of the canpJS or the rest of the people around. were there nuch of a response to the fact that he was gone? A: 'lhe new faculty. Q: Haw :mny faculty were there at that p:~int? A: We didn't have any at that time. We had them hired b.It see this happened in Jtme am our faculty was hired but they would c:x:ma on board in August. So a few of the faculty were in tc:Mn and they were upset because George had hired them and they felt an alliance with him just like I did. Of course I also had an alliance with Dr. spencer because that's who hired :me in the first place. So I was tom between the two and I had tnlsted Dr. Spencer so I k:nervl what he was doing was right but yet I thought Dr. Cohen was the greatest. so I really had a hard time pJ.lling those two feeling together and. the new faculty only k:nervl Dr. Cohen. 'Ihey krlet1 Dr. Spencer because he was the presidentand he int:ezviewed them. When you came to canplS at that time you saw everybody, so they knew him. But I trean 1tCSt of their CXJntact had been with George Cohen, he brought them here, and. they were uneasy because this was our vice president and. he brought them and he was leaving for one :reascm. or another. "What is that going to do to us when we get there? Are we still going to be allowed. to teach the way that we were hired to teach?" So they did have sane feelin;Js of un.certainty and. they questioned the same thing that I did but I don't Joelieve they were ever qiven more of a definite answer. But none of them resigned and at that time they were free to qo an open market. '!he faculty could get other jobs if they wanted to. Q: What about CUllan Davis? He was the one right i:Jnm,rHately appointed? A: '!bat day he was appointed Acting Vice President and the next week came on, he was to be our Vice President for =Pl.a:nnin;J;;---......,... --w---.;--we---;-had----.r-:;hired~ him back in Februa1y or Marcb to cane on board JUly 1 to be the Vice President for Pla.rmin;:J. It was his dream to plan a new' university and set it's direction, nat academically, that was the Vice President for Academic Affairs, but to plan this university as to haW he would like it to go, deVelq>ing the l::uildir.gs etc. and the very tane of the university. He came fran Toledo? He had to cane fl:an Texas but I think he was in Toledo at the time but I •m nat real sure about that. But artJW8.Y then he was to cane on board JUly 1. So they ask him to cxane early Which he aid, and his familydidn't cane either until O'lrist:mas of that year. so CUllan Davis was in a very ta.lchy situation because he had also been very closely cc:rrnected. with George COhen but he was also involved in the decisions sanehow but I never krlet1 hew llllch. Q: How did you k:ncw he was involved in it? A: By the na:ture of the university and the way the decisians were made at that time, with the consultations and in discussing ~ openly. Q: Who else then do you think was involved in that decision? A: Bob Batson, I don't k:ncw, I don't think Sally was but it would have :been Bob Batson and probably Bob H::Al.list:er. I'm nat sure Jay even would have been involved because he was totally in =a-llS..,.iriBSS--Af.fairs at that ti:me, it was just strictly b:lsiness, we didn't have sbJdants and they were just different. I wasn't even involved in anyt:hi.n:J they were doing at that time. 'Ihey were aver in the OSOo Builcl.in;J which separated us b.rlldinq-wise and I didn't see the people that worked in business. so it was probably Bob Batson, CUllan I'Bvis and maybe Chris • No, he was too new. He wouldn't be involved in that, BOb iEA11rst.er and Dr. Spencer. I don't know ani I never did know for sure the specifics. All I krlow is there were sane irregularities ani I knew alxJut those that were goin:J on. Q: What do you mean by irregularities? A: In followin:J procedures in the way to do thin;Js, state regulations. Q: Rsgal:dirq what Jdnjs of thi.n;Js? A: Purdlasirq ani I don't really knc:M, I just don't have aeyspecifics. Q: Hc:M were you aware of that? Just fran wol."d of mouth or that was saoethin;J that you just knew as a secretary? A: When he was doing I didn't think that was the way you were supposed to do it l::ut I didnIt kncM because I didn•t knew all the state regulations myself ani he woold travel ard he would awrove certain things ard take the authority for doin:J so ani I won:iered if he had the authority because I wasn't sure he did. Q: '!his was for • • . A: Like awrov.in:J 1:h.in;Js for prospective faculty, different t.l'lin]slike that. I thought the Boal:d of Re;Jezrts were supposed to approve.So I don•t know of haw much I thought he shouldn't but he did true or not ani I wasn't that familiar with the rules ani regulations at that time. so I was not sw:prised when I heaJ:d part of it was irregularities am I didn't ask the specifics and Dr. Spencer could tell you all that. Q: Back to CUllan ll!Vis ani his t.akin:} over, you were tal.ki.D:J about that he was in a bad spot because he was involved in the university? A: Well CUllan is a very sensitive person an:l he was pit into a positim of his boss ani I'm sure they were frie!XIs too. Yoo. can't work that closely with saneone ani not beccme frierm ani yet his loyalty was to or. Spencer and the m'li.versity am also he probablydidn•t knoil what to do with me, he had a sec:retaJ:y ani we worked in the same office. So he had to work with me on the vioe presidentstuff an:l with Drena. with assistant vice president stuff an:i I think he was in a difficult position of hanlli.rg evex:ythin;J withc:ut hurtirq saneone, the tension was very high in the office. Q: Hew lon;J did it take for that to calm down in . • . A: at, it didn't take lOl"'g', people have a way of forqetti.rq ~ ard came in the next week ani havirq saneone fran theoutside cane 1ri helped a great deal to solve sane of that because theydidn't have the euotional ent.an;Jlement themselves. '!hen we gradually ll'OVed back into t.l'lin]s that had to be done. I mean we still had to qet all those programs written ani schedules pJblished for students to register. He filed suit, George o::tJen did, an:i I wasn't involved in that but I :knew it~_90ing on. So I mean it was always there, it just wasn't the overri.c:lin;J issue after the first week. Q: was it difficult to be frien:Js with him, did you fell that after it happened an:i you socialized on the side did you feel any sort of aonfllet of interest? or the need to keep that very private? A: well of cxm"Se I felt the need to keep what I was doing at the university very private because I CCJUldn't maintain confidence, or or. Spen::Jer could not have maintained confidence in me if he thought I was giving or. COhen~ that they were doing. I felt that or. Spencer did trust me ani I wasn•t about to betray that trust. So I felt very sorry for George COhen, I knew it was very pitiful arxi he was about as low as you can get an:i being around him, he had rrrt sympathy. El1t not to betray the university was rrrt first thcu;Jht. Q: But in teJ:ms of what ~needed to keep confident, what were those kin:l of ~? I mean did you even feel that even as the academic prograna began to develop, that became private infonnation? A: Well he really never asked. we weren't frien:Js ~se When we were workin;J together because I still had him on a different level than me, he was my boss. Ani it's not as much in today, society or nature as it was back then, but secretaries, well I never called him George W'ltil after he was no lon;er my boss. 'Ihe thought never crossed my mind to call him anything but Or0 Cohen and that's just the relationship that we had, I was an E~~~>loyee an:i he was the boss. I don't know hew he felt about that but I know that I felt the distinction very clearly an:i after he was no lorger rrrt boss, the chan;Jf.rg of that relationship was difficult an:i I was not at ease with that because I still called him or. COhen an:i when they were aver to our house for dinner I always referred to him as or. COhen ani he mentioned a couple of tiJnes that I could call him George nt:M ard it was just sanet:hin; that was difficult for me to do. I mean to transfer him as a frieni fran a boss. But aver tiJne he was in town for a couple of months and I got to know his wife better ard after I got to know her I felt m::>re on an equal with him. But I didn't see it as a conflict of interest but I always made sure that Dr. Spencer knew that I was seein;J him as a frien:i because I didn't want him t:hi.nkin;J that I might be givi.rg cut secrets of what -we were doing, especially of what the university 'WOUld be doing at that case. or. Spencer told me, he said, "I know how you feel about him, you "Wrked with him a lag tilDe, 'Well only six months but we worked a lot of hours," an:i he said, "I 'WOUldn't want to ask you not to associate with him." He respected how I felt an:i that meant a lot to me so I liked :bath of them an:i Dr. Spencer was the cme that I was closest to because he was the a1e that I had worked with in the beginning ani tom between two people you really care about. Q: Just to back up a little bit again, do you :tenenter that Rsnt-astu:ient-conference, were you involved in that? A: Rent-a-student? Q: It had various names I guess fran what I have been able to gather but it was in October of 1969, it was early that year and in the press it was called the Rent-a-student-conference and they brought in students apparently fran aroun::l the state and tried cut different ideas on them and I think that was when fran what I gather was when Georqe Cdlen first appeared on the scene. A: I think we held it out here at the Ramada Inn. It was out at this erxi of tam, I remember that. I· never t:hc:JI.r:lht of it as Rent-astudent. We had students in fran all over as an advisory to us. You rallE!!IDber Vickie r:unbar who was one of them and she was also in the first graduatin;J class. And I can't remember the guy's name, they were cur first two students officially enrolled, :registered at the university. '!he guy's mme escapes me but I remember Vickie because she was wanti.rg to be involved in all the camnittees and she wanted to be active in developi.rg the prog:tam. She was one of the students here to help us write the programs, we needed to knc:1.rl what they felt was needed. SO we used them as an advisory g:t'tllp. '!hat's hc::M I saw it, I didn't see it as a Rent-a-stm.ent. I don't even recall the term. Q: '!hat's i.nt:erestin:J, I don't know' if it was in the local press as Rent-a-student-conference but it was mentioned in the Chronicle of Higher Education as that and I •ve seen it in a couple of other places but pertlaps it had other names S1.1C'h as Academic Pl.annin;J. Ern of Side Two, Tape One Q: You had heaJ::d it called an orientation'? A: I •m. tryi.rg to think, Govemance orientation or sanet:hin:J like that and we bro.lght John Kaiser over fran Eastem. Q: NCM wcul.d this be, I •ve got sane dates here, there was a Govemance Workshop in May0 A: '!hat1s when we brought in John Kaiser and he had been ~on a oansul.t:i.n;J basis to get that workshop set up. '!hat was different fran the other one. I remember it but I can't remember the details of it. Q: I've got a couple other events, let me nm by yc:u and see whether yc:u have any mem:ries about them, the ''blue memo" that Spencer sent to Cbhen. A: '!bat was written and sent to COhen but it was really sent to all faculty and he sent it to Dr. COhen to distribute to the rest of faculty and it's been called the faD'OUS ''blue memo." Really all it was was shcwi.rg the goals and directialS that the president wanted the university to take ard he wrote that to or. a:lhen because or. cc.t1en was writin;l the academic plans and the catalog and the schedule and the prog:tam and curricu.l\:nn. So that was written to Dr. OJhen to be used as the guideline and also to be sent to every faOll.ty member. Q: was there a large respalSe to that at the time do you remember? 19 A: No, it was just an everyday accepted t:hirq ard didn't bec:cme the fa:JIDlS "blue memo" until probably 1971 or 1972. Q: Ani then what made it fanDUS? A: Everyone referred to it as the "blue memo" because we sent it to tNerY faculty person who was hired ard then when they wa.lld :refer to it there was saneth.irg in it an the faculty experience quarter ard then discussions started aver, ''Where are going to have facultyexperience quarters," and then they said, 'well it was in the blue memo." Ani that just became conversation to indicate which one it was. '!hen I think around 1974 or 1975 they decided the ''blue tnenD" should be chan;Jed, that it was outdated, we were no lc:n;er on quarters, we were on semesters and they picked up in that. '!hen it became the faiiDUS "blue memo" which sam:1s derogatoJ:y,but it wasn't at least nat when it was written and it wasn't viewed as that in arry way, it was an infonnation piece. Q: When you say it SOIJl'X1ed derogatoJ:y, it SO\liXJed derogatory when it became faiiDUS? A: 'lh.e tone of people taJ..k.irg about the faiOOUS "blue memo" made it SOU1'Xi derogatory. Maybe it was in their mind but I think also it probably was because we had charged ard it hadn't been dlan;Jed and we were still se:rding it out. art we weren•t on quarters, we were an semesters and the memo J'IE!eded to be either not sent or corrected which I think it has been. I don't know, I don't work in that department now. It ·was chan;Jed, I remember we worked an chan;Jirr;J it but I don't know heM it was charged finally. Q: 'lhe ad that was placed in~Magazine, do you rernemb=o.r the preparation for that, for f~n!CrU!tme:nt? You might nat because these little t:hi.rqs all oc:me by. A: I only remember it vaguely, I know when it went in and they sat around ard they were t:ryin;J to figure out heM to say it so that theyoc:W.d draw the right kini of faculty. '!hey were lCJOkirq for a certain type of faculty and they were t:ryin;J to make the ad say that, that they were looki.rg for saneone less traditional. art I don't remember what the ad said. I can•t remember heM it went. Q: In May after that Governance 'Workshop, Spencer talks at one pointin his papers about the five people incl~ Spencer bein;J closeted in the lamplighter Hotel for five days li!Orkil'g on catalog ard curriculum. You•ve probably tcucbed an that in various ways but that was sanetl1i.rl3' that I thought sort of captured the work energy that was goin;J an. 'Ihere was points where people closed the doors and locked then&elves in, were you involved in that? A: No, that was the think tank session. Q: were there many of those? A: No, there wasn't a whole lot of them but there was a ff!!!lfll. Shirley Kinley Q: Ani that's what they were called? A: Well, I don't know exactly what term was used but that's where you do your plannirg ard you just t:hrow' out ideas ard they still have retreats which are the same thin:J. Academic Affairs will have a retreat, Dr. Iacey will have a retreat ard he111 take his division heads ard just go saneplace ard closet themselves up. 'lb.ey don't take a secretaJ:y ard sane people call it "pie in the sky" kini of plarmi.rg where you just take the tine to get together for really thoughtful plannirg. Q: '!hen after that the curricular plannirg 'WOrkshop with thirty-five of the charter faculty in June, wa.lld that have been before COhen left or after? A: 'lhat was right after. Q: Right after. A: 'lbat wa.lld have been in response to all the letters -we were gettirg about what's goin:J on. Q: Cil, so they had ••• A: So they called all the new faculty in ard they had a -workshop for them. Q: Ani they came fran different parts of the country, they weren't yet in Sprin:Jfield? A: 'lhey weren't yet in Sprin:lfield ard -we paid for their transportation to cx:me up to review the curriculum ard explain what happened to cause George COhen's termination but that was not the topic of c:x:mversation, it was curriculum. I remember Mr. callirg coined the phrase ''Restoration of a Dream =n....,.tha............,t_wo_ir....-kS out. Where maybe they had gotten disillusioned because they were all excited alx:Jut their dream ard then to have their leader taken out was disillusiament to t.han so that was his term for the workshop. Q: was it suooessful do you think? were you there? A: I was there. Yes, Mr. asked me if I wa.lld go to that for psychological reasons as well, you see I was COhen • s secretaJ:y ard evm:ybody knew nr:1 feelin;s for George COhen ard if I accepted it they wa.tl.d accept it. SO I atterrled the workshop. I was there at all those meetin;s ard ~bythe university. Q: Do you have reactions to it, that was sort of the first meetirg of the charter faculty then was it? Ani you had met them all as they had trooped through for interviews, do you have just any, I suppose I should have a list of names of people that I could sort of nm by you but do you have any reactions to any of them imividually or as a group after seeirg them all together? A: I remember Mark Erenburg because he had a beard and I was surprised that he'd cane to an interview with a beard and Doug" • I :temember t.hinJdn3' Doug could not be a faculty member, .-be-was-""Tjust---..-too, Youn:J ani too harXIsane so he could not be a faculty member. .Atn Ted Cloak, I thc:Alght he's a mess, you know he had real bushy red hair and a beard, as a matter of fact a :EXJ11Y tail, and he had lag hair. I hadn't seen lag hair on men nuch, other than hippies, l:ut certainly not faculty. so I remember bein;J sw:prised at them because I was surprised at Ted because Ted's resume looked good.. Ted called me one day out of the blue and gave me sane information about himself and that he would like to cane for an inte:tview and then I told Dr. COhen about it and then I lost his number. I had misplaced it sanewhere on Irtj desk, and so -we came in the next day he says, ''What about that guy you was tellin;J us about?" and I said, "Cloak?" "Yes, where was he f:ran?" .Atn I said, "I don't really remember. I thought I gave that note to Dr. COhen," and he says, "You did," l:ut he says, "I thought I :r;:ut it back on your desk." well that note never surfaced again and I was tracinq back in lfri mini that I had to be alone so I could retrace all Jfri steps leadinq up to that phone call in my mird so I could remember all the details of what he was tellirg me and I remembered he taught sociology and which school he was at and I called that school and yes he was there and they gave me a phone number for him so we got in tcuch with him l:ut they were so excited because he had all the qualifications they were loakinq for and to think Shirley Kinley a1nx:st lost him. "It wasn't me I gave you that note.11 art then whenever I saw him, I had al:teady b.rl.lt him up to be sanethin;r really special because he had looked so good, and lfri first inpression was disillusicnnent because I just wasn't prepared for that look in a faculty member because I still had faculty up on a pedestal. was that sanethin;r that you were Q: ~other people that you had reactialS to? A: Probably so, l:ut offharrl I can't think of any. Q: What about the relations between the university and the oarminity of Sprirr;Jfield. • • A: It was extremely good, I mean this oarmmity was so 1'lllCh behin:i ~State that anythin:J we needed we got. Q: What do you mean, what would be the ~that would be needed that were available? A: I guess just suwort, you koow, like if we needed supplies, they didn't know me fran anyone when I went into Jeffersons. I said I was fran the new university, I had no identification and they gave me all those materials and I just walked right out the door. When we were brirgirg our new faculty in, -we could call up any of the bankers or citizens in Sprin;Jfield and ask them if they'd take them out for dinner and they were so a<Xll •m•ll'"datirg to our schedules with their schedules, they would do anythin:J that -we needed to do an:i we were settin; up different workshops and we1d call any of the liDtels and just everybody wanted to do everyt:hj.rq they could. Atn you just felt it, it was a feelin; ll'Ore than anyt:hin;J else. Ani we didn't start gettin;J that, I didn•t notice it until what was his name, Gus stevens, Shirley Kinley one of our legislators I :believe it was, came out here to a class ani GUs had on a floppy hat ani there was sane cutlllSllt made that wasn't too favorable. so then I don't knc:w then there was a lot of disolSSion on that ani it wasn't positive and the newspapers picked it up and then GUs decided he was goin;J to have a flq:py hat day. It could have turned out to be disastrous. It didn't, b.rt it could have. He decided to have a flq:py hat day in response to this. so he didn't go into it by himself, he had lots of help. We had a flq:py hat day out here in the little circle and you were supp:lSE!d to "Wear the biggest floppiest hat you had and meet out there at noon and they were going to have a contest to see who had the fl~iest hat. Well I think it was Iaura Jones who won am had the bl.ggest floppiest hat. so then every year -we'd have a floppy hat day and we did for a year or two. Q: When you say it could have been a disaster? A: 'Ihat was our legislator that had canmented that he didn't think it was appropriate to wear a flq:py hat in the classroom. '!hen you make a big spectacle, "Let's have a floppy hat day." To me it could have been interpreted as thl:t7.tlin:J it back in his face. Q: Right. Ard tmat do you think saved it fran bein:J that disaster? A: Cb prcbably I think the senator's name was Davidson, I think it was, and he took it in good hl.noor when he could have taken it as a slap or an insult. Q: Who participated in that? A: Ctl, everybody, I was there. Q: You were there with a floppy hat? A: I didn't have a floppy hat 1Jut I was there. Q: What was Annabelle Pattm's role in te.nns of CC11111mity relations? Did you have llllCh contact with her? A: Yes and no. In the begirmirv;J she was the linkage to the ocmmmity, her husban:i was vice president of a local bank and she was also a leadin;J citizen in Spr~ield. I think a year or so before she had received that Gold Key to city of Spr~ield. Anyway, she was well recognized in the CCI'I1l'I1UI1ity for cxmmml.ty work. so she came to work for him as an administrative assistant and she really kird of helped him get organized within the cxmmmity. I mean he was new to this state ani city ani wasn't familiar with the rules ani regulations of arq of it. So he needed sanaone like her who could help him l::leccme acquainted with the CCI1Il'O.U'li.ty, to meet the right people, to do the right things. So she was just kin:i of workin;J with him on that. She was there ani we worked together but nat on projects. She was doin;J her t:hin;J and I was doin;J mine. 'lhey didn't coincide all that llllCh. Her work was different. 23 Q: So you \IOrked for CUllan Davis for a CC"~Uple of weeks and then -------came in and you were with him. acting for a year. So it wasn't as though he understood that he 'Walld A: He was here a year. Q: A year and then Kaiser came in JUne. Hc:7ll did that shift ha};:p!n'? A: Well Mr. was only appointed. to be vice president be here. See he was hi.red. to be our Vice President for Pla.rmi.rg and so they asked him if he lilOllld take Act~ Vice President for AcademicAffairs and forego the planninq because ~t was l'IX)re i:uportant that we have a Vice President of Academic Affairs and he took it. But as the year deVeloped there was no way the university oculd wait to start the pla:m.i.rq. So they hired a Vice President for Plannirr;J. Q: Alli that was? A: Well a.ctually what they did was pJ.t Planninq and Blsiness toqetherand gave it to Jay and after Jay left they hired Tan Goins. I think they split it again at that :point and hired-=--:---:-:=-- and Tan Goins for Pla:n:nirq. I think that is what ~. But Mr. knew he 'Walld only be for that one year as Vice President -of_AC_idirii~-i..--c-Af'fairs am they were in national search for that full year. So he was not expect.in;J to be in for :mre than one year. Q: What was he like to~with? A: He was 'Ver)( kind, a country gentleman, in the very sense of the "WOrd, a very dignified man. I'd never worked with anyone like him before. Meet of the people I had worked with were Q'l their way up and were very enthusiastic,. very vibrant am had a lot of energy. So he had already been there, he had been a Vice President of Academic Affairs before. So he was just wantin;J to sit ba.clt am plan, not being involved. in that hectic day-to-day academic 1110rld. So he was different. Olllan Davis soon began to take a larger :role in JV:adaaic Affairs am he was the Assistant Vice President for AcaQemjc Affairs still then, }i'lysicaJ.ly he was aver in G Buildin;r am we were in A BniJdirJ;J. In the M:i&t'S Buildin;r see we were in the same office am when we maved. a.zt here, we went to the A Blild.inq am he went to G. Q: So the liDY'e a.zt here was in September? A: Yes. Q: Gl:'cur:dbrea.l was in JUne. A: But at that :point we were stlll a nu:Jpile and when we llDV'ed out here there was no grass, it was all mud. I remember the first day a llDlSe came across Irrf typewriter. It scared me to death, we'd Q'llybeen out here about a 'Week. It was a oomfield before they built the b.liJ.d.i:rq so there was still mice araun:i. I was sitting there typin;Jaway and I •m scared. to death of a mouse anyway and that th.irg ran across 7Jl:i leq and I didn't krJow what it was. You krJow, I was hlsy andthen that th.irg came aaross my leg-again and I saw it and I sareamed am I jumped up in Irri chair am. the 1IDUS8 came across Irri typewriter ani Mr. came n.1J'D'li1'q cut. He 1:l'Jco;Jht sanet:.hi.n;J serious had happened ani we called R'lysical Pl~ani they bralght a 1IVJUS8 trap over an:i caught 7.rri 1IVJUS8. 'lhe only ll'OUSe I ever saw b..tt it scared me to death thc::P.Jgh. It's unusual to firrl a m:::use in an office. HaDes, b..tt not offices. Q: 'lhan by June of that year you were world.n;J with Kaiser, is that right? A: Yes, he came June 1. Q: What was that first academic year like with classes begirmin;J, the students arrivin:j? HeW did the university charge in tenns of activities ani what it was made up of, the people it was made up of ani the issues that ooncemed people? A: well it ch.arqed, it chan:Jed fran writirg programs to ilrplementin:J them. It ch.arqed fran paper to people an:i the 't.!Ork didn't slCM dam but it was of a different nature. At that time the Vice President's office was as :nucha part of the students' daily activities as the faculty because there wasn't that distinction an:i that separation. students were involved too. 'lhe students were involved in the government ani they came in thinki.rg they were on the same level. At least the air was there. I don't really know how to explain it b..tt I think the students oartin3" in today when they go into the vice president's think that's the last resort. Where students canin;J into the vice president at that time was the first resort. so if they had a problem they went to the vice president. Q: '!hat's interestin;J. What was your reaction to the govemirg system? A: well it was unusual. I thc::P.Jght at the time am I still do to a certain extent that the farulty should teach an:i the students should learn arxi administrators should administrate. But I know there has got to be a certain anomt of equal participation goin;J Cl'l there. But I thcu;Jht we were bound too tightly by the qovernirg system in the vecy beqinnfn;J0 Q: H'c:IW so? A: We couldn't make a decision withcut a gettin:J it~by all three constituencies. students had to approve it, staff had to approve it, faculty had to ~ani the university Assembly had to approve it befom you oou1d institute any new policies. An:i here we were ani I guess mainly that was an abrupt chai:ge fran where we had been writin;J these policies, a stroke of the pen and we had policies. 'lhan suddenly you wrote up the p:>licy and if it was :regardin;J students you teak it to a student senate ani they kicked it aJ:OUl'Xi ard you took it to the faculty senate arxi maybe the staff had absolutely no interest in it at all b..tt they had to approve it ard unierstarxl it :befom it could go to the university assemly. Q: was it separate senates at that point? A: Yes. Q: Did you get involved, yourself in t hat at all? A: Not a whole lot, I mean I wasn't a staff member. I didn't have time, they met about two hours every week and they did a lot of 'WOrk and I just didn't have that kirrl of time. Q: Where did you think the ideas behind that govenrl.n:J system came f:ran? A: It just kind of evolved. '!hat they wanted it be a participative school, 1:h_e¥ wanted the students to feel like they were i.nvolved in policies which involved them. '!hat's good. I liked the idea of it but I just felt there was probably too much of it. In fact I heard one of our students that had been on all the govenrl.n:J thi.rgs, she's now a faculty member, by the way, part-time. BUt at that tiJne she was a student. Q: Who is that? A: Beth Dawson, her name's not Dawson now but I can't remember her name now. BUt she was a st\Xlent. and she was very active and she told me once that she t:hc:ught this place WOlld nm a whole lot SIOOother if students wt:W.d go back to learni.rg and faculty would go back to teac::trln;J and administrators WOlld go back to runni.rg the organization. Ani I picked up on that. '!hat was actually her tenninology, but I agreed with her. I hadn't thalgh.t about it until she said it but it made sense because we were in so much confusion at that time, I can't remember What issue it was on when she came out and said that. Erxi of Side One, Ta];)e 'lWo Q: What was the student o:auposition like? 'lhe student body and that first year what were the students like, where did it seem they were oani.rg fran, what were your reactions to the student body, did it strike you as unusual? A: It was older than what I had expected, Bud Budi:rger was seventyale or seventy-two and was our oldest student. Beth Dawson was probably in her thirties, late twenties anyway. Vickie DJnbar was aoother student probably in her early twenties. I mean I pictured college students as nineteen and twenty-year-old kids and that wasn't the nature of our student body. we had very few of really ytJlll'q ones, m::st of our student l:xxly was a little older. '!hey were :nx:n:e stable I think. Q: Did you see it cha:rge very 11llCh. over the years? A: It ~verygradually. It's ~,I can see the cha:rge. Q: What is the cha:rge? Shirley Kinley A: l!he chan;e is more that we have yourqer students. Now that could be an effect of the housin:J. It brirgs more of them in view b.rt anyway it's now more kids. At the time the student activities oould have been ~which involved family whereas now the student activities should be more geared to the si.rgle student or the~ student because that seems to me where it's needed the most. Q: were there any big oontroversies that you remember fran that year or big issues that sort of embroiled people the first year? A: we got into a reorganization durin:J the first year. Not the first year, blt it was in 1972, aeyway right after he came in we reorganized with deans. We hadn't had deans up to that point but John made deans. Q: so this was when Kaiser came in? A: Yes. Q: JUne of 1972 was that when he came? A: He came in June of 1971. '!hat first year now he was rec::utaterxied by the faculty al.m:Jst unanincusly. '!here was one abstention I think. Q: So he came in what position? A: He was a faculty 'Difi'IDher the first year, he was one of the first faculty ani he applied for the vice presidency when there was a natialal. search ani cut of the natialal. search he came up in the top three and then they voted en it because we used to have everythirg voted on am the mrlversity assembly~him unanincusly to the president to be the vice president. Am I think the faculty senate which was the key one then was one or two abstentions ani the rest was unaniJlv:JUs, which in itself was a great treat at that time. '1he senates never agreed an anyt:hiig. But then he was just really gettirr;J organized his first year ani I remember I went into him ani he said, "Are you pl~to stay on?" I said, ''Well, that's up to you. I wa.lld like to stay on if you 'WOUld like for me to stay on as your secretaJ:y, b.rt I think you have a right to choose whoever you want reqaxdless of what the civil service system say. You can transfer me to another position if you 'WOUld like to brin:J in your own secretaJ:y." He says, "Well, you've been doin:J all right in the past. tet's tJ:y it for awhile." SO I was kirxi of ~intedthat he wtW.dn•t say, "Lave to have you." But that was the way he was. Q: What was he like am what was it like to work for him? A: He was ver.y different. I didn't mw::1erstan1 him at first and he didn•t discuss t.hin:Js with you. I mean lliJSt bosses kirxi of use you as SCIUl'Kii.rq board. 'lhey nm their ideas past you ani their frustrations. If they are arqry at the president they may tell you because they :know it's not goirq to go anyplace else. 'lhey don't mean it ten minutes later ani they'd like to take it back, those ld.zxm of t.hin:Js. But he never did that. I never knew hl.Y he felt aJ:x:ut an issue the first three or four months but then gradually he learned to trust me ani then at the ern of I'd say the first couple years, he ran everythirg past ma, just SOUt"ded off am. didn't have to worcy. I think he justhad never been an administrator before, he'd been a faculty member anihe wasn•t sure how to go al:xJut bein;J the boss of an office. Because he leamed ani he learned fast ani was one of the best administrators I've worked for. But in the beg:innin;r I was his first secre1:al:y anihe didn•t quite knc:M Wilt to do with me. '!hat was his term afterwards when I finally went in to talk to hiln about it three or four :uart:hs after I'd been on the job I went in ani said, ''We just don•t seem to me meshi.rg," ani he said, ''Well, frankly, Shirley, I just don't krlow Wilt to do with you. I've never had a personal secretary before, I've never had anyone tell me where I'm S1.Ip!XlSSd to be when ani why. I •ve just kin:i of been used to settin;J my own schedule ani it's different for me." So we had to leam to work together am. we learned to work together veey well ani I could even tell when he was thf.nkin:.J usually by the expression on his face when he walked through. But the first year he spent plllin;J it all back together again because Mr. Kaiser was active ani I don't think it was necessarily his idea to have deans. I think it was a decision that was arrived at in consultation with Dr. Iaoey ani Dr. Spencer. Dr. Spencer ani I don't krlow who, probably the mrl.versity assembly chail:persan or the faculty senate aeyway, they came to this decision ani they began to work a.rt the pl:."CXaSS for the recn:ganization. Q: What would he souni off about? A: Ch, different issues that were goin;J on at the tilne. He never lost his c::x:arposure in a meetirq, in all the years I have known hiln he never lost his c:x:mposure am. you'd never krlow he was an;p:y until he'd get back to the office am. then he would SCJUl'Xi off alJout sanethingthat was said or Why it was said. You knc:M, it just got to where when he would get back to the office it was safe to say it am. once he saidit it was fine. Q: Did ·he meet a fair am:mrt of resistance do you think to his ideas or his administration? A: No, I don't think so. John was well respected a1 this cmrp.lS. I mean he was a good administrator J::ut mre than that he was an honest man ani~knew it. You could talk to hiin and he would listen, may not agree with you l::ut he at least would listen to your side. I mean he listened to ~with an open mind, he didn•t have his mind made up before he would listen to you, am. people knew that al:xJut hiin and respected hiln for it. Even though he might not agree ani theymight be wastin;J their tilne, they knew when they went in there he was listenin;J with an open mind ani he 'WClll.d charge his mind if theyoonv.incad him. Ani that happened on a few oocasia1e where I knew Wilt he was goirq to do ani after listenin:;J to a few arguments he 'WClll.d cilaD;Je his mind. Q: He was here until 1978, six years? A lot lDIJSt have happened in six years? A: Yes, a lot happened in six years. Q: can you summarize that or • • • A: '!here -were a lot of cban;Jes goirg in dur:in;J that time. '!he DDSt vivid liiSllDries I'd just as soon not go into am that was Whenever there was conflict on sane of his personnel decisions. scma of those got to be pretty hectic times. Q: Well I don't want to force you if you don't want to talk about it but I guess I'm interested in how you think he han:iled those am where you think the conflict was caning fran? A: Well the conflict was ccrnin:J from the faculty member that he had recc::munen:ied. '!he faculty member was popular on canpJS at least with certain group am he managed • Q: 'Ibis was Ettirger? A: Yes, ani Kaiser am d:urrped spencer ard lll.lnJ him in effigy out here on the canpJS and those thin;Js are enDtional thin;Js. You krlc:M I felt very close to him. I had worked very closelywith him for a lorg tilDe am after the first few DDnths of hw:dles that we got through of learnin:;J hart to work together then we leamed to work very closely together ard he tu:rned cut to be the easiest :persa1 that I had ever worked with. Because I knew' him, I knew' how he thought about tl1in;Js ani I could anticipate how he'd respcn:i to certain thin;Js. I also knew that if he said sc:methin;J he meant it. He wasn•t wishy-washy ani he was ~principled and he followed through. I thlnk t.bat•s what kept him in respect to the faculty even t:hroughout all these Kaiser sicpw. I mean they posted those signs all the way down Shepherd Read cc::llll1v;J into the carrpJS, they had those thin;Js posted -Kaiser ard that really made me an;p:y. It made me ~that they got by with it. azt it made me an;rier than I think it did John. Q: Jl:> you think he expectEd it in sane way? A: No, he was really hurt. No one likes to have those tlli.IJ3B said about ycu ani I thought it was unfair. He did what he thought was right ard he made his decision based m the program's decisicm :rut he was the one that they were oenterin;J in m ani I just thought it wasn't fair. I think he han:tled it very "Well I mean I wouldn't have haml.ed it very well. Q: Hew did he harxlle it? A: He just respc::I'Oad, he didn't react. Various sb:dents ard facultywa.tl.d have sit-ins in the office ani he didn't try to stop them. Q: 'Ihis was here in your little area next to your desk? A: Yes, the Whole hallway, outside ani they didn't do anyt:hi.rg, they just sat there, a couple of faculty 1DBIIIhers an:::l students different ones watl.d stam up ani talk 1'lOW ard then how it was unfair ani "let's support him" ani this kini of thi.rJ;J. art. :aartly they were quiet. Q: was he there himself, ~ -----------------------~-----------,--c- A: Yes. Q: Arxl you typed away for the day or what did you do while this was go:i.r:g on? A: well they told him they were going to ani I was so arqxy that he thc:ught that I shoUldn't be there. He thought that I shcul.d go work in another part of the buildin;J while they were there. An:1 I said, "Are you afraid that I will incite a riot?" He says, "I :krlow you're ver:y Sl.JR)Ortive of me. 11 So I didn•t, I went over to another b.tildin;J ani then I thought, "'Ihis is ridiculous. If he can work in the office so can I." So I just picked up my stuff am marched back over there, asked them if I could get through because they had everyt:hirq blocked, so they let me get through. Q: Ycu weren't harassed in any way? A: No, they were very mannerly ani just quiet. '!here was noise because people were talking ani they talked to each other but theyweren't loud ani they weren•t unruly. Q: Hc:7.t1 many people do you figure were there? A: Maybe seventy-five, this was in the corridors. Q: Ani most was faculty or students? A: '!here was a little mixture of both. I think mcst were students. Q: Did that ~ your feel~ about any particular irxtividuals? A: well I was mad at Ron for a larr:J tilDe. It was kin:i of ironic Ron emeci up l::Jeirg my advisor on my masters. Q: How did that happen? A: I decided to go into the program in in:lividual opticm to work on a degree on finance ani human resource :management and I stuiied the IO booklet that they p.zt out ani Jolm Raiser respected Ron E'ttirger1 he agreed with the program and he follc:Med through ani he took the brunt for that but he respected Ron1s intelligerna. Q: Ard you knew that? A: so whenever I was picking an advisor to help me through mymaster's progz;am I knew that Ron was professional ani I knew Ron knew What he was doin;J and I respected his intelligence so I went to him ani I asked him. I didn't know how he WOll.d :resparrl because we hadn•t really spoken to each other in a couple of years. Q: ~didhe respc:nj.? A: Just as if I was a student. He was ver:y wann and oordial. and told me what he thought I should do and said, "Whenever you figure it out this is what you want to do, I I 11 be glad to help you with it.II '!hen I asked if he1d sm:ve as Ifri advisor. Q: 'lba.t was a good turn-aroun:i. SO you think Kaiser then was 1'lm'e acting', folla.drg through on the prc::gJ:am1s decisions than on his CJ¥m? A: Ql yes, he couldn't have done it on his own. At that tiJne youcouldn't do anyt:hin;J an your own. Q: so he had to follow alorg with what the progLam had said. A: An:i it had to cane up through the pJ:ogrant, the cluster. I think it still does. I mean Dr. Iacey couldn't go down am fire saneone on the faculty, I don't think. Q: It hasnIt ha:r;:pe:ned yet0 A: I don•t think our process is set up that it could be done without sane l:.'8CX1111DE!Ition fran the faculty group. Q: What about the resignation of Spencer? Were you privy at all to what was gofn3' in at that point? Did you oontirue to have a relationship with him through all those years or had you got 1'lm'e ani ItDre distant fran him? A: 'lbere was more and. 1'lm'e distance, in the fact that we didn't work on the same t:h..iJ'gs. But the personal relationship was still there. I felt very hurt that he was rut. I just hated to see it ha];pm because I knew him for the man that he was. I didn't knc:7.rl all the feelin]& behin:l why the resignation came but I did knc:7.rl that he was hurtin3' so I was hurtfn3'. Q: Did you see that canin; at all? A: Ql yes, not the resignation but the feelin]s of the faculty. 'lhey w.re gettfn3' arr;Jrier an:1 arr;Jrier an:1 1'lm'e resentful. You could see it cc:mi.rq. Q: What was the a1::alos£:here like or what kini of decisions do youthink he made that peLhaps provoked sane of that or • • • A: weJ.l part of it was he wall.d get into m:guments with them, in oonfarence l::'CCIIIS. He didn•t maintain oc::mp:JSUre, he wall.d lose his tenper an:l shout back at them. Q: Did you see that ~'w.re you there? A: Yes, sane of them. 'nle faculty, Mark Erenbul:g' was a good one, just loved to do things to make him an;;p:y, just to see if he wall.d lose his ten'per. Q: Like what kini of thing? A: Ql, he 'WOUld egg him on on an issue that he wall.d krlcM that Dr. Spencer was ~to just to see how argey he could get him. At least it looked to :me like and. to same of than it looked as if Mark was just doirg it. I don't la'.lic:M of any certain issues per se of:f.h.ani. Q: Ha.f lli..1C:h do you think the university has char:qed. since Spen::er left? lk> you feel like ta.J.kirg about that? A: I don•t la'.llc:M. see thi.n;Js have cha:rqed so 111..1C:h. I used to be involved in so lli..1C:h of it fran the begi.nn.ilq up thra:lgh Kaiser and Spencer and. whenever Spencer left, Kaiser -went in as president and. -...-----the aC::t.irg vice president. So I wasn•t involved. llldi. Q: You stayed an for the secretary for -------- A: But he didn't work very closely with :me so that I wasn't involved. in lli..1C:h that was go~ an at that point. '!hen when he left and came m, she kept herself more or less to herself too -ana--=--=I,_wasn---.-.'t,..........IriVo-lved. in a whole lot that was goirg on, especially not in the pla:nni.n;J of it. I may have been involved. in the result of it but then everylxdy is. But that's not hew you really you u:nderstard sanet.hi:ng. Q: You were her personal secretaJ:y as well? A: Arli so I finished JJq degree that first year here and. then I told her that I was going to be lookin;;r for a job as soon as I finished JJq degree. I told Dr. I..aoey the same th.in;J. SO then he asked :me if I wt:W.d be willi.:r.g to stay on here at the university if a position came up and I told him I would. Q: so you were unhappy then world.r.g for her? A: well she d.idn't utilize me the way all my other bosses had. To her a secretary was just one who typed and I'd never been used that way, not since I'd been at this University. I had been in the pla:nni.n;J of thi.n;Js and. I felt like I was valuable and. she made :me feel like I was a typist. Arli it made a big difference in the way I felt about What I was doing. She d.idn't involve me in anyth.in:j that she was doirg because I was the typist. Arli She just had a different role for professicnU.s and. secretaries and J'ICI'le of JJq other bosses had made that dist:in:::tion. I knew I was an employee and. they were the eaployer, I was secretary and. they were boss. 'lbat d.istinctian was always clear in JJq own mi.rd but it was never a separated factor. We workad. t.ogether to gat a project done. I never felt any distinction by them, by lJl.YSSlf but not bf them. '!hen she made it clear that I was a "t¥Pist and. I wasn•t to be l11VOlved. in any of the administrators or their d:fsaJssiaw or anything professialal because I wasn't a professional. Well I resented that because I'd felt professialal for a lcrq time. So I told them I was goirg to be lookin;;r for another joo and. I told Paul that too. But I said that I wouldn't be leavirg mrtil finished JJq degree because I didn't want to take a job and then take a:nc:Yt::her one. '!here was no rese:nbDent towa:rC1s her, nor hers to :me but it was just our world.rg styles were so different so I ccul.dn't work that way on a lon;:r term basis. so then when a positian cpmed up in the president• s office I applied. for that. Q: so how' lag did you work for her then? A: About a year, Februaey 1979 ani I accepted in March of 1980 bit because graduation was canirg up ani she felt that she oc:W.d not be responsible for that ani all the graduatioo contracts ~cq:proved ani the graduation reports bein;J accepted. All that USEd to be dale in the vice president's office, it's I'1C7.\' dale in the dean's office. But at that time it was all done in the vice president's office ani she said that I had always handled that J?BZ't of it ani that she oculdn't take :responsibility for graduation if I left her at that point. SO I didn't get to officially leave her office until May. Q: '!hen the new position was, career DevelcpiEnt Special Projects Assistant? A: It was an administrative aid is what it is, but in reality what it was designed for, it was Dr. IaO!f'S way of writirg 1.1pflaid llll::bility for career enployees. Mostly desl.gned for secretaries that want to :beccma administrators. It could be a man but the way its setup you have to be here eight years, you have to be in a responsible clerical position, or supeJ:Visory for eight years or have a degree. see under civil sm:vice this isn't his criteria, this is civil service criteria, that you have to have seven or eight years with the university to take the exam or you have to have a BA degree. so it was his way of establishin;J these positia"JS DDStl.y for the a1eS who had been here several years ani then they could take the job as an administrative aid ani p.xt into a position that1s totally different fran a secretaey. iha.t was the rationale behind the settirg the position up. '!here's three of them in the university. currently two of them filled. Q: Yourself ani • A: Judy Day. Q: SO you•ve DX:IVed arc:JIJRi then fran position to position, have you worked directly with lacey an projects? A: Yes, I started cut worJd.n; directly with lacey, the first six 11a1ths were spent directly with hi:m. 'llle next six nw:nrt:hs were spent workilg with Dick Williams ani Tan Goins an the capital budget. '!hen the next six l1D'1ths I was back worJti.rq in his office but I was workin; with John H.lnki.rs an the budget ani for the last frur l1D'1ths I •ve been in the Fan:1aticm office because the secretaey resigned • • • End of Side 'lW, Tape 'lWo A: ••• ani he was knc.lwledgeable abrut the university ani who could do the work but then he oculd go ahead ani the F'c::JI.n'mtian was in the process of lookirg for a director ani they needed saneone they oou1d rely em but yet wculdn't feel lrurt if they weren•t selected for the positicm or saoet:hin;J like that. Ya1 knclw I had no aspiratia"JS in fun:l raisirq. I had no elq)erience in furxi raisirq. Q: What -were you doirg When you -worked directly for Iaoey? A: Projects nartly. Well I ran the united way ccmplign on this caDplS ani assisted him in the 1:hin:J in the CCRmty area b.rt that was just a very small portion. I kept track of faculty appointments ani when they were hired ani how much they were makiiq, I kept a little board up to date, just administrative kinds of t.hirgs for him. or he would ccme out ani say, "I want you to go to this meetirg with me," ani then all three would go. Just those kinds of~' just spJr of the :nat~e~It or if he thalght he wou1d want a conference to be setup he would say1 ''Would you arrarge for these conferences," ani that was just a matter of callirg all the people, like student housin] receptions, we usually invited all the students to the receptions for whatever pl.lZpOSQ ani that's all the infonnation he TNQl].d give me ani I would just take it ani go fran there. Q: Did you like wor~ for him? A: Yes, I still -work for him. F'olln::2tion is u.nie.r the president'soffice. Q: Just to wrap it up I will just ask you fran where you are rrH lookirg back generally what has charged aver time, especially the charqe fran Spen::er to I.aoey0 A: 'lhey are totally different b.rt I haven't noticed all that 1llldl difference in the lmiversity. Maybe it's because I haven't been involved in it in that way. I'm in one little area l'1CM whereas Aoadendc Affairs ani I do believe is where Academic Affairs is where evmythin;J is turned a:rt:All'Xi. I think that's where the action is. Maybe beirg out of that office, I'm just not involved as much with the university as a whole as I am worki.rg on special projects in the president's office. I don't get the overall view I had before, so I really can't see a big difference. But maybe I'm not in a position to see it. I krlow there is probably people who would disagree with that. I can't see a big difference. Q: Anythirg else? A: No. Q: 'lhanks a lot. End of Side One, Tape 'lhrae
|Title||Kinley, Shirley - Interview and Memoir|
Colleges and Universities
Sangamon State University, Springfield (Ill.) (1969-1995)
|Description||Kinley, an administrative secretary at Sangamon State University for the Vice President for Academic Affairs and in other offices, recalls the first 10 years of the University: SSU as a non-traditional university, academic programs, faculty recruitment, the administration, and the first semester of classes. She also recalls President Robert Spencer and the short and controversial term of the first Vice-President for Academic Affairs, George Cohen.|
|Creator||Kinley, Shirley b. 1942|
|Contributing Institution||Oral History Collection, Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield|
|Contributors||Hunt, Nancy [interviewer]|
|Digital Format||PDF; MP3|
|Rights||© Board of Trustees of the University of Illinois. For permission to reproduce, distribute, or otherwise use this material, please contact: Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield, One University Plaza, MS BRK 140, Springfield IL 62703-5407. Phone: (217) 206-6520. http://library.uis.edu/archives/index.html|
|Collection Name||Oral History Collection of the University of Illinois at Springfield|
|Title||Shirley Kinley Memoir|
|Source||Shirley Kinley Memoir.pdf|
University of Illinois at Springfield
Norris L Brookens Library
Shirley Kinley Memoir
K621. Kinley, Shirley b. 1942 Interview and memoir 3 tapes, 126 mins., 36 pp.
Kinley, an administrative secretary at Sangamon State University for the Vice President for Academic Affairs and in other offices, recalls the first 10 years of the University: SSU as a non-traditional university, academic programs, faculty recruitment, the administration, and the first semester of classes. She also recalls President Robert Spencer and the short and controversial term of the first Vice-President for Academic Affairs, George Cohen.
Interview by Nancy Hunt, 1982 OPEN
Archives/Special Collections LIB 144
University of Illinois at Springfield
One University Plaza, MS BRK 140
Springfield IL 62703-5407
© 1982, University of Illinois Board of Trustees
'Ihis manuscript is the product of a tape-recorded intetview ooniucted by Nancy Hunt for the oral History Department of 5an:Jana'l state
Margaret Reeder transcribed the tapes
university on December 2, 1982.
ani Kay Bush edited the transcript.
Shirley Kinley began on the 9rouni floor of planni.rq ani creati.rg San;Jamon State University. She began -workin:.J as a secretary for Dr.
Robert Spencer, sso•s first p:reisdent, an:l -worked her way up to InAdministi:ative Assistant of Career Develq;:ment Special Projects.
her memoir, Kinley relates the stocy of the first ten years of
San;Jamon state University.
Readers of the oral histocy memoir should bear in :mirXl that it is a
transcript of the spoken word, ani that the interviewer, narrator and editor sought to presenre the infonnal, conversational style that is inherent in such historical sources. Sargaira1 state University is not responsible for the factual accuracy of the Inell¥)ir, nor for views expressed therein7 these are for the reader to jUdge.
It may not be
'lhe manuscript may be read, quoted ard cited freely.
reproduced in whole or in part by any means, electronic or mechanical,
without pemissian in writirq fran the oral History Office, ~ state University, Sprirqfield, Illinois 62794-9243.
Table of Cattents
Introduction to San;JanDn state University • 1 'Ihe First Semester. 2 GeoJ::ge Cohen as Vice President of Academic Affairs. 4 '!he First Day/First Week. 6 Rscrw:bnent • 6 Respect for Faculty • 8 Creatir:g Innovative Academic Progl:ams • • 9 wor:Jd.n;J With George COhen • .11
COhen's Termination • .13 'Ihe "Blue Menw:J" .18 'lhink Tank sessions • .19 Personal PerceptialS of the New Faculty Members • .20 cnmmmity Support .21
Floppy Hat Day. .22 Move to the Present Qmpls. .23 Bangam:m. state university~ system. .24 student caxposition • .25 Jctm Kaiser •
.26 Sit-Ins ani Ron Ettirger. .28 Dr. Spen::er's Resignation • .30 career Develqmettt Special Projects Assistant • .32
Shirley Kinley, Deoember 2, 1982, Sprin3f'ield, Illinois.
Nancy Hunt, Interviewer.
Q: Shirley, when did you first hear a1::lo..lt 8angainon ani ~twere your
first reactions to the place? What were your first experiences in canin:] here an1 getting a jab?
A: I first learned ahout it in the summer of 1969. In the newspaperthere were all :Jd.ms of stories about 8angainon state University ani the new president they were seekin:J. Ani when I read in the newspaperthat Dr. Spencer had been selected as the new president in Sl.lrday1s paper, why sunday night I wrote a letter ani told him I had worked at sru and had really enjoyed 'WOrkin:3' aro.md students arrl when he came to Sprin;Jfield I wa.Ud consider it an honor to be considered a can:tidate. I received a response back fran him by 'Ihursday of that week sayingthat he would be in Spr.in;Jfield an TUesday of the next week.
Q: 'Ihis was in August?
A: August of 1969. I can backtrack, August 12th was the day of myinterview so it was the Sl..n'Day before AugUst ahout August the 1st when I first read his announcement am wrote him a letter the same day ani he had it back to me by the 5th or 6th sayirg that he lllO\lld be in tam on the 12th ard if I coold cane in to see hiJn he would like to talk to me a1:1out it. So I went in arrl he explained to me all about the new University an:i how it was goirq to be a mud pile for a lon;J tilne but it was going to be excitirq and he asked me if I knew what a utilityinfielder was. Which I didn1t at that time, so he explained that.
Q: What was a utility infielder?
A: '!hat's saneone who can fill in t:hrot..J;Jhcut the field, like in a ballgame, who can play first or third, shor'tstq> or field ani so he said that1s what he was lookirg for at that point was saneone who had skills who could fit in where they were needed until he got a chance to really take a look at what he was doi.rq ani get his office o:rganized. I told him I really di.dn1t care where I worked just as len.; as I cail.d work at the university.
Q: Ycu lived in Sprin;;rfield at the time?
Q: Ani were ya1 world.rg at the time?
A: Yes I was workilg for the Department of Mental Health with the
state of Illinois at the time.
Q: In what position?
A: I was the secret:a:cy to the Zone Director at McFarl.ard Zone Center, the Dep.1ty Zone Director, nat the Zone Director. Whenever I got ready to leave he talked. all about the university. Of course he was reallyexcited al:x:ut it ani I was excited about him because his ent:husiasm was just oveJ:.'Whelm:in.
Q: Do you remember specific t::l1in;s that he said about the university at that time, certain t::l1in;s that struck you about hew he descril:led what the University was goi.rg to be all about?
A: He had a map of the canplS ani he told me what it was goi.rg to be like and how by the time 'We mved out here there 'ID.lld be not:h.ing but mud and 00l'1Sb:uction everywhere ani that it was goi.rg to be exciting to start fran scratch with no programs ani 'We'd develop our own pJ:Ogram and it was a really unique C'l);'lPOrtunity to be involved in samet:hil'q like that fra:n it's very conception.
Q: Arxi at that time it was planned that the move to the mud pile 'ID.lld be in a year?
Q: In the fall ani the first academjc year 'IDlld beqin at that point.
A: Right, in 1970, we'd have our first students on this canplS which
we are on rrM, in August of 1970 am then later they acx::epted it was Septeatler not August, the :buildin;Js we:ten•t quite finished when we gat ready to move in so we rented. spaces in the united Methodist ctrun:.:b. I believe it was for classes. We had offices in the Myers Build.in;;r and started off on the 8th floor ani then we want to the 6th floor arxi the loth floor. 'lhen we spread out to the old Osco buil.d.in;;r, or the Penney's buil.d.in;;r, I have forgotten.
Q: Where was that?
A: It was in the middle of the block on Adams, it was down one block fran. Myers Brothers.
Q: on the sa.rt:h side of the square?
A: In the middle, I can•t remember. I think that's Adams and it's in the middle of that block. 'lbere's nr::NJ a mall there.
Q: Right, so there was office space there as well?
A: Well not in August, we expanded there, 'We had offices right across the street fran. Myers Brct:hers too, I can't remember what buildi.rgthat was. 'lbere was an old drugstore right beside it and a restaurant an:i w had our admissions office there on the first floor. 'lhe other administrative offices wre up on the lOth floor ani then above the OSCo store, that is the 0sco buildi.rg, they still have the OSco store
th.ink. Arrjway after the end of the inte:tview he had me talk to Marcella Ml:r:IhY who was Dr. Matsle:r's secretaJ:y am she asked. me hew
lorq I had been working, hc:7,q nany years experience I had, what my current civil sm:vice title was. '!hen she said, "I'll tum you back to Or. Spencer." So he was in a hurJ:y to catch another meetirq arxi he walked me out arxi he said, "Well then I'11 see you on 5eptember 1st.11 I says, "You mean I've got the job?" Ani he says, ''Why yes. What I need you for is the skills that you have ani you can get me organized."
Q: And what were those skills that he was lookirq for?
A: saneone who was a good organizer1 could get alot'¥1 well with different personalities, was easy goirq ani had good administrative skills, good organizational skillsI good typi.rg skillsI shorthan:i skill, just an all arouni girl Friday. He was lookirq for a utility infielder who could fill in wherever he needed saneone. so I asked him not to p1t it in the newspaper because I was on vacation at that t:i:me ani I was supposed to have left for the lake of the ozarks that weekerd that I got his letter telling me he would be in town on TUesday. so I postponed my vacation, was leavirq, in fact my husban:i ani son were waiti.rg downstairs in the oar with :my suitcases loaded. we were leavi.rg as soon as I got out of that interview. so I told him, "I'm leavirg on vacation today arxi I won't be back until next week so I would appreciate it if you wouldn't make art:/ announoement." I Jmow everytb.i.rq al:x:ut the university hits the p:!per but I said, "I would awreciate it if you1d keep it out of the paper until I have time to get back ani call my boss because he doesn't even know I was c::anirq to this intel:view because it came up too fast ani he was on vacatim." so he said that was fine, he wouldn't put it in the paper for two weeks. well the M::n:Uly I was to go back to work my son was sick so I just called an:i told them I wouldn't be back that day and I'd be in the next day. I had fm:gotten all a1xut tellin:J Dr. Spencer that I would be back to work that next day ani tellin;J my boss so he could have it put in the paper. 5o the day that I returned to work which was one day later than I had expected to, it hit the D'Omi.rg paper and evecyone knew it before I got in to tell hill\. so I fourn that a little bit emba.rrassi.rg. But I had forgotten that I had told him that. so I gave him two weeks notice am then I started on September the 1st ani then it wasn't a full two weeks ootioe that I could give :my current boss. I did work with my ather boss in the evenin:] to get him caught up ani then also Or. Spencer was very tolerant for thin:js that needed to be dale in the daytime that I oould help Ikrl out, my previam boss. He would c::aue up on the lurdl hour ani I want to lunch with him ani tell him the different t1'lin:ls that needed to be dale to get him organized to break in a new secretary. '!hen when he did hire his secretary I 'bxlk two or three lUI'ldl hem's an:i want cut there ani explained th..in;;Js to her. Dr. lacey had told me at the time •••
Q: Dr. Spencer?
A: Yes, I'm gettin:J mixed up. or. Spencer told me at the time he was negotiatin;J with a certain person for his personal secretacy am at that time I was very ycun;J ani hadn't any hqles of bein:J the president's secretary, I just wanted to work at the university. so he told me that I CD.ll.d have my pick, when the university did get
Shirley Kinley 4
organized. I oc:W.d take my pick as to where I wanted to work. SO as
tney filled the different positions, I was introduced to each person
of course because I was right there in his office. Arxi I decided
which position I wanted but it hawened to be the last position they
filled and I was gettirg very nervous because I thought what if that
person doesn't want me.
Q: You decided by the position then, rather than the personality?
A: Yes, I decided I wanted to he in Academic Affairs and at that timeof CXKJrSe we were only hirirg one administrative in each division andthey had hired the Dean of Business Affairs, Jay and theyhired the Dean of Students, Bob McAllister and they had one left, theVice President of Academic Affairs. Well I wanted to be in AcademicAffairs because I figured that1s Where all the action is in auniversity. So they didn't hire him rmtil December and I was gettin:Jvery nervous and in fact my husbani told me there you are lettin:J allthe plum jabs go and you are goin:J to en:i up just bein:J a back""Up
secretary in the president's office. Ani I said, "If I am, I am." Sowhen they did hire him when he came in I was waitin:J for him.
Q: '!his was GeoJ:ge COhen?
A: '!his was George COhen. He came on in about December but not on
contract and he was hired but he still had his other job so he wasoanin;;r and workin:J two or three days a week an a consultirg basis andnot f!NerY week. After I knew he was hired and he had a
|Collection Name||Oral History Collection of the University of Illinois at Springfield|