Douglas Kamholz Memoir
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University of Illinois at Springfield Norris L Brookens Library Archives/Special Collections Douglas Kamholz Memoir K128. Kamholz, Douglas b. 1947 Interview and memoir 2 tapes, 140 mins., 38 pp. Kamholz, Sangamon State University student in the 1970's, recalls his experiences at the university and his work on the Tenure Decision Committee. He discusses many of the faculty members, President Robert Spencer, SSU's nontraditional environment and curriculum, the Public Affairs Reporting Program, the Twentieth Century Homesteading Project, Spoon River Book Co-op and other cooperatives in the Springfield area, SSU's early housing efforts, and student membership on the Board of Regents. Interview by Nancy Hunt, 1982 OPEN See collateral file: interviewer's notes and copy of an address delivered at SSU's 1980 graduation celebration by Kamholz. Archives/Special Collections LIB 144 University of Illinois at Springfield One University Plaza, MS BRK 140 Springfield IL 62703-5407 © 1982, University of Illinois Board of Trustees Preface '!his manuscript is the product of a series of tape-recordscl interviews or.::n:iucted by Nancy hunt for the Oral Hi.stoey Office, S8lvJamon state university on september 7, l982. Margaret Reeder transcribed the tapes ani ¥ay Johansen edited the transcripts. Douq I<amholz became a stu:Jent at Sa.ngaJia'1 state university in the summer of l973. At orx::e he beca1nr:':l actively involved in the operationsof the university. He served as student nanber on the Board of Regents durir.g the year 1976-1977 and on the '1.'enure Decision Committee for three acadea:dc years, l975-1978. Ka:mholz was also diligently involved in the functionir.g of the Spoon River OXlp, a d.owntcw.n Sprir:gfield organization w.hich set:Ved as a front for leftest organizations in the area. He explains haw many new organizations becalne satellites of the oriqinal coop. Beir.g an active l.l'lllil'tlber of the 5a.r:lg'a1lr>n state ocmmmity, Kamholz was aware of the finer t.unirr:J of the university. Accordin:;J to him, Sanganv::>n ''encc:m-aqed you to remain d.istinc:t :from others in a qood wayand not to SUCDJmb to sanet:h.in;J mass and overpc::Merir.g." For Kamholz,his "general impression is one of a very positive experience for myself and th.allsands of other };'leO.Ple who pass through." Readers of the oral history menDir should bear in mind that it is a transcript of the spoken 'WOl.'d, and that the interviewer, narrator and editor sought to preserve the inf0111.1al, oonversational style that is inherent in such historical sources. Ba:r.ga:mn state university is not responsible for the factual accuracy of the memoir, nor for views expressed therein; these are for the reader to judqe. 'lhe manuscript may l:le read, quoted. and cited freely. It may not .be reproduced in whole or in part by arr:t neans, elEll.::tron.ic or mechanical,withalt per.m.ission in writir.g fran the Oral History Office, San;Jairon state university, Sprir.gfield, Illinois 62794-9243. Table of Contents Arrival in Sprirgfield • 1 Retum to .Academja • • 3 I!Wentieth Centw:y Home-study Project • . 4 Why the WOrk CUlture and SOCiety and Justice and Social ortler Programs Ended. • • • • • • • • • • • • 8 President Robert Spencer • • 9 Election to the BoaJ:d of Regents • • .12 working on the Tenure Decision camnittee • .13 Decisions on Terrure. .16 'Ihe Pipeline • .22 Joi.nin;J the Public Affairs Reportin;J Program • .23 'Ihe Spoon River COOp • .25 Housin;J COop and Alternative Housin;J • .26 other Cooperatives ani SOCieties • .30 student Membership on the Board of Reqents • .31 Douglas Ramholz, september 7, 1982. Nancy Hl.mt, Inte:rvia~er• Q: ll::lt.I:J, why don•t we start by t.alkirg about when you first came to Sangamon. Why you came here, where you came fran, what your first reactions were? A: I was livi.rq in a rural canmune in northem Illinois, not very far from the Wisconsin bol:der. My frier:Ds ani I had lived there for several years ani we were beir.g evicted by the state of Illinois w.h.ich owned the property. we had had sane what we considered success in t:r:yi.rq to expose the community of Rcckford, Illinois to sane thoughtthey weren't used to ani same lifestyle models. SO we decided what we should do is, as 1~as we are l:lei.rg uprooted, why don•t we qo ahead ani move to another town. Find another town a.l:xxit the same size, but the additional th.i.n;J we were looking for was a university. so we looked arourd ani there was a strorq sentiment to remain in Illinois. so Spri.r.gfield became a top choice, where there was farmlarrl around but the same t:i.:ae there was a university. Q: What year as this? A: '!his was in 1972 ani we eventually left Iaughin;J Acres, the camnune in northem Illinois, in the fall of 1972 after the crops were in. we decided, as a cx:mnunal decision, to take allrost a year off and meet in Sprin;;Jfield, Illinois on the southside of the state capitol at two o'clock in the afternoon on July 31St, 1973. so we all went to our different ways and spent the winter doi.rq various projects and livi.rq by ourselves or living in OOLlples, with this healthy break with the idea that we would ccme back with less needs with the ability to again th:rc:'lw our lives into a ca!IDon pot and live cooperatively again. so by golly, the a};!POinted time came ani there on the southside of the state capitol in downtown Sprirgfield there was a straggliD;r in of people. we came, I was married at the time, ani I.cuise and I came fran washington state. sane other ;people came fran California, sane people came fran In:iiana. Q: An::l these :people becalre sbJdents at Sanga:mon? A: sane of them did ard sane of them didn't. I don't knc:M l'10W' if I can say most. But we sec::ured a farm. south of Sprirgfield, about fifteen :miles, visible fran Interstate 55, off to the west side, east side of the highway on the road that goes to Divernon. we were hogfarmers there. we rented from an eighty-two year old woman -w.ho lived in another fann a couple of miles away. we built up her hogproduction ani we had chickens and hogs ani cows and. geese and lots of goats an:i dogs ani cats an:i ducks. '!hat1s how I physically came to spri.n;Jfield. Previous to securin;J the farm we canped out on Old Jacksonville Road in a house that had been lived in an:i owned by Judge Harlington WOod, Jr. And the Judge had to put the house into a bllni trust, in a divorce suit it was my umerst:ardin:], am it was vacant. A young man in town who's name was stinnett, Gregg stirmett I believe who was a young official at a bank, convinced his bosses that this long-haired professor from this new mrlversity in town, 8an;Janal state, was an okay guy. 'lhe professor•s name was Ron 5akolsky am at the time Ron Sakolsky was married, had a child an:i Gregg stirmett went to bat for him ani got the bank to rent this wonierfu1 bi~ house to the Sakolskyfamily. Well no sooner did Ron 5akolsk;y nove m but there was separation, his wife was gone, the child was gone, Ron • s ~ brother Michael 5akolsky m::wed in with him am as the S\ll\'lnEr ItDV'E!d on, I think they 1l10VE!d in the sprirg of 1973. As the summer moved on a group of people fran Brooklyn came through to pick up Ron ani Michael to go cmrpirg in the nnmtains ani then they came back ani I think sanebody•s car wouldn•t work, I don't knc:1tl. But they decide::l to stayawhile. '!his was the original appearance in Spri.n;Jfield of what became "the boys from Brooklyn." Ani there are still some of the group here of our people. 'Ihen we came ani we were invited to oorre and stay there. so we prt up tents in the backyard and there were a bunch of us too. '!his house, I can remember the livirg room was a lon;r living room, just very long, longer than yru would imagine. It's a large house and the livirg roan ran the entire lergth of the house on one side and it was said that was so JUdge Wood could bring his horses in, but we don•t knc:M about that. But I can remember on long internJpt.ed piecesof wall, there just beirg a red backpack ani a green backpack ani a blue backpack ani a yellc:w backpack ani we wcul.d make dirmer on a dozen little campstoves. Tiny little fires goirg in the kitchen ani there were lots of people living there. well the bank was unhappy about this. '!hey sent us a nasty letter wantirg us to cut the lawn which we didn1t want to do because there were a lot of people sleepirg on the lawn. Ani JUdge Wood had ilnporte:l some fine Kentucky bluegrassllhlich was tall ani soft ani worrlerful. to sleep on. And the bank sent a letter ani said, "PeJ:haps your frierds in the tents would like to nove into the house before they continue on their j oumey." well an:i subtlety put, but we were livirg there ani again we were evicted ani it turned out to be quite timely. Everyone who was livirg there foun:l a place to go. we went to the fann in Divernon arrl other people went other places. But that was my introduction to Sprirgfield. Q: So that was where yru lived first when you came and then you moved to a place in Divemon? And how was the decision to oorre to Sprin:Jf'ield made, was that the canmune in Rockfoni•s decision to come to Sprirgfield because of 5an;fcm:>n? A: It was because it was a middle-size city. we felt that we had been able to be effective in Rockford, so -we weren't ready to tackle anything larger I guess. But the attraction of Springfield was that it had a mrlversity ani Rockford did not except for a small private college. So that was one of the big draws. I think I was as hot to go to school as anyone else was. But sane of the others thought, an:i we had heard sane fleetirq 1:hin;Js about 8an;Jalta1 state, but nothing very :mch to count on. I :kna..r I did not cxane here expectin)' to find what I fcum. I wanted to go back, I had droppal out of college when everybody dropped out of college in the middle sixties. 'lhis was 1982, I'm thirty-five, I'd gone to college directly out of highschool. I'd gone for five semesters ani then I dropped out. I had a ligh.t-shc:M and was drafted an:1 ran away an:i came back an:1 a bunch of stuff like. So the years went on until it was saoewhere in the earlyseventies, 1971 I suppose, I took a semester of college in Rockford an:1 academically did well ard had not found it to be so oppressive that I couldn't take it. So that furthered my resolve to return to school. I think that I was chief anar;;r those :people who said, "If we are goin;J to m::we, let's m::we to saneplace where there is a fairly aooessible university." So that was certainly part of the decision to cane here. Q: So what did you find When you got here? A: Well I had been here once before, I had stopped in. 'Ihought it was kin:i of a strarge lookirg little place with all theSe tin buildirgs with letters on them and I didn't knc:M" what I wanted to study. I didn't really, well I had no idea that anyt:hirg alte:J::native or excitin] 'WOUld ever be fourrl in the l.Dliversity. So my first thought about going back to school was to become an elementary education teacher. I thought well we'11 get their little minds when they are young an:i unfonned. see what we can do with at least thirty :people a year. I actually had done sane prelilninaJ:y checking around ard ta1kin:J to sane faculty people. . '!ben I came here an:1 this incident with livinq with Ron sakolsky, the professor, certainly made me realize that there was at least one person here that was not in what I thought of as the llX)ld fran which all college professors care. '!hen I was tcyinq to figure out what I was goin:] to take an:i someone referred me to another professor, a man named tarry Golden and I called up ani kept ask:iiq for Professor Golden. Finally this guy got on the J;ilone ard said, "I'm tarry ani you're Doug ard that's what we should call each other ard what do you want to knc:Jw?" I don't remember what I wanted to :kna..r but I remember that was another incident where there was a quality that was beginning to dawn on me that existed here. I just had no idea that could have place in academia, a kin:i of infonnal, straight fcn:wani, ln.nnan ~wayof relatin; between faculty and students. Not to jump ahead, but I remember once a professor here tellirq me that advisin:] was the haniest t:h.irg that he did, because given the context of this university as an academjc advisor he was fully expected by his students ani by hllnself to deal with every problem they had all the way to suicide. Ani the normal parameters of academic advising is so ex;parded because of the sense and the enviroiJirlelrt: at san:Jana1 state. It became a very serious and all-encarpassing job to take on an advisee. Q: Did you fini that there was that depth in the relationships that you had with professors? A: Oh, yes, yes, yes. So what did I do? 'Ihe first semester I prettyImJ.Ch found the JUstice ani Social Order P.rogralu, a program which is ncM defunct, a program which when it was declared defunct several. years later at a Board of Regents meetirg, I remember bein:J one of the protesters in the audience ani gettirg up ani wal.kirg out ard kickingthe door which gave great pleasure to the Olail:mm of the Board of ~because they then referred to my actions as those of a childish child. But yes, JUstice ard the Social Order ard Ralph stone was the first professor here who I thought was extremely different fran other people. As tiJne went on you cx:W.d really identify who was rurmirg off this idea in an alternative way to conduct education the farthest. Ani in my first semester here I think that Ralph stone was the one who did that. 'Ihe course that I took fran him was probably entitled, "Coops ard COllectives," later to go down in history as being named, "Coops, Collectives ard other Impractical Ideas." But there were probably a dozen students in the class ard we embarked upon an academic adventure that was so ImJ.Ch more personal than anyt:lli.rq I had ever experienced in a classroan. We spent as ImJ.Ch time tJ:yirg to figure out why it was that we were there in that classroan or what kin:i of people we would be if we believed in the t:hings that we were studyirg ard what kind of people would not believe in the t:hings we were studyin:J. Ani there was a dedication ailDl'¥;J all of us, Ralphincluded., to be so open am to tJ:y ard really be expressive, that we had cp:atitude for what we were learnin;J am that he had greatgrat1tude for the act of teac:hin3' ard teaching us. It was a very wann and won:1erful. experience. '!here is another story, a good Sargamon state story that canes out of the same class, not the one I was in but the same course but a different semester, in which saneone was in the course who was not same hippie from same rural commune in northern Illinois, someone who thought it looked interesting ard took the class and by golly he gotinterested in it and intrigued by it and stayed in the class and the semester went on ard toward the erd, they were tJ:ying to get it rightwhat they should call themselves, these people who had now becane sanewhat dedicated to the society of pioneers or whatever the forerunner of the ~tivem::JVel'tlel'lt was. Words like camnunards and COOperativists and t:hings went arourrl the :roan and this man said, "Well, we like the cammune so aren't we ocammmists?" And no one was more surprised than the man himself of his own self description. I always thought that was a good Sargamon state story. '!hen as mysemester went on academically I began to IOOVe more into the work CUlture society Progzam which is where I took my first degree here. Q: You c::harged programs? A: I guess. Q: You officially received your degree fran • 0 0 A: Fran work CUlture SOCiety. '!hat is true and the thin;J was at the beginnirg that got me involved in that was of course the twentieth century heme-study project, an ambitious ani grardiose project which as much as anyt:hin:J else is an example of all that 5angaioon state believed it cx:IUl.d be at least in those days. Q: What was that projec± all about? A: '!be project began in 1973, at least w. were 1:al.k.in:J about it. Maybe it was even t:alked. about a little bit before I got here. Q: You came in 1973? A: I came in the SUIIII1Ier of 1973, right. ~sense is that I was involved in sane of the first serious discussions about it. Mark Erenburg should have tapes as a matter of fact or at one time had tapes of the first really big clutt.ery sessions about twentieth cen.tw:y ll.ane-st.udies. It was based on the idea that there was a time for back-to-the-lam ll'OYeiDel'lt. A lot of people t~~ere doing that. It seemed to coincide well with the concept of the program which had to do with work, labor. It's n.ow transforned. into labor Sb.:dies Prcqratnbut the idea of wm:kin:j the lam seemed to dovetail well with the idea of work ani also it se.envad as though Sargamcn State 'WOUld be dedicated to put sane ener:gy towa:ras such a project. It was a real t:hirg, if you qo back ani look at those catalogs, the first words that you see When you look at them are, I just looked at a COJple of them and one of them ~ins, "this is not so l'lll.lCb a traditional catalog." But it• s like the first thought that they gave you was this is not traditional. 'Ihen there was another one where the first t:hirg you saw in the catalog was a message fran President Spencer and one of the first lines was, "Sanganal state is on the lead.inq edge." But always there was the drive, the sense that we were different. It was a different institutioo of same kind. So we always tried to, we :believed that, we took them at their word and we tried to run it out as far as we could. '!be chief force lJe't::drd the twentieth century bane-study was the Work Oil:ture SOciety ProgLam and a professor :named. Dan~' whose Ph.D. was in soc:iology. And Dan himself personally was very involved in back-to-the-land, movement. We managed to get a hold of, I think that our nest egg was three thousan:l dollars in cash and th:ree thousan:l dollars worth of in-kird services fran the university. And we took over operation of about ten acres of lard. which is ac::t"'SS the road, a1Jn:)st across the st::t'eet from the entrance to Lincoln I.am University,which that DBkes it Shepherd Road I guess. And there is a storage house, the Shepherd Hollse out there which Bob Spencer once had great dreams of ma1d.rg into a faculty lOUIJ;Je. It's n.ow storage, it was the oarp.rter place for the \.U'dversity. It was a farml.lalse and we had the big barn and a COJpJ.e of other sheds that had been part of the farmstead that had been there ani then the lani back in as l'lll.lCb as Sargamcn State owned. I think it was about ten acres. 'Ihen the in-kind seLVices were for duplicati.ng', mailirq and maybe not mail, that would be an expense. I think we had electricians do sane things, we had water run back there, today whatever this is, whatever we decided it was septerriber sanethi.rg, I just had an ClR?le from one of the trees in the orchard, the twentieth century hane-study orchard, one of the few Jttysical signs that is left. Twentieth oentury heme-study was sane great idea of how to do eve:ryt:hing at once an:i it was solar power and methane :r;xJWer an:i gardens ani 'WOC'X::h'IIOrk:i.rg ani hide tann:i.n;r an:i every imaginable 1dni of har:di.craft. we thollght that there was certainly a great need to have a clearirq house for that kird of information, to experiment with that ki.r:d of stuff ourse1ves a:rd then to be able to disseminate the information elsewhere. And it existed for prc:bably a cauple of years on the a.cademic charts. You oould :receive up to eight hours a semester or twenty hours in total doilq twentieth century bane-studies so that you ccat1plete half of your degree requirement. was ki.r:d of silly for lDl!.il to drive fifteen miles fran my fam to fam. Q: t'.bin;J that project? A: Yes. Q: Did you do that? A: :r have a lot of hours in that. J: sldtped sane of it because it So sane of it was red.unlant to lDl!.il. Q: HeW Illi:UlY students were involved, would you say? A: J: think there pni')ably were times when there were sixty or seventy stude:nt:s involved in it. Q: And how' many faculty? A: J: would say there were times when there were up to half a dozen faculty involved in it. Q: Dan Knapp. A: Dan R'napp, Mark Erenl::lll:l:g', Mary Hotvedt, Bob Sipe. Probably,although. J: may be m.i.xin;J my eras, klut probably Al casel.la cmre over to tell us sane th.ings about natural science, 'Mlich -we were all sb.ocked to leamirg this J: supp::a!. But there were people brought in fran other areas. :r taught a cauple of times at ~state also. I taught a course called Vocations for SOCial Cllan:Je tut 't4lat made s think of it was a:nather course that I taught called Work a:rd Reward in Rural America which was another eventual outgrowth of the same k.in:i of tb.inq. I'm tryirq to J:'E!Illelli::l, there were other faculty people that were sort of brought through. And of course anyone 'Who ever put their han:l in the gra.ll'd, Bob Spencer 'Who always liked to tell us he'd been a farmer, would OCJ.'De by once in awhile or have sane words of advice or would :meet with people. Q: Was the admi.nistration supportive generally of the project? A: You k:ncw' it's so hard to tell. '!his institution :r think gave us a lot of money to do what we were doin;J, as unfonned as our ideas were, as waa1ey as they were, I think they gave us a lot of money. '!hey gave us a lot of crap, too. A lot of resistance, they made us explain everythj.n:J in detail at times and we considered them to be quiteresistant. But you k:ncw' when plSh came to shove to sign the check, they'd sign the C'llec::k. we'd do th.ings, we did get acade.udc credit for it ard even if they pissed and. moaned. a bit, the administration, in the end we got to do th.ings. And so looldrg back on it, :r was aware of this then, I don•t think I was terribly unrealistic, but they said, "Oh it will never cx:ane to anyt:hin:J. 11 I •m sure same of them were self satisfied, when you go aver there nt:M, the bam is fallin;J apart, it's used for noth.irg except stor~ same salt in to throw on the road. Q: What did happen, ha.tl did it fall apart? A: '!here was a time as the mid-seventies approached that a terrible ethic grew with 8a.rqam:::m state am. the ethic was, "I don't want to be the last one to leave, so I '11 leave nt:M. 11 We lost a lot of people am a lot of faculty members. Students, on the other ham--see I think that Sangana1 state opened up about the time that a lot of people like me who had ~out of college decided 'Well I '11 go back to school. so here was this new university openin;J up out of noth.irg1 grabbin;J students anywhere that they could get them. Here were these radicals who had~out of college, usually to protest or to take drugs or those two 1:hin:Js may not be this exclusive, in the mid-sixties am. they were goin;J to go back to school. So the two am. two came together, so there were a group of students here who -were a very interesti.rq group of people. Ycu also had what I think is probably trickled away by nt:M, but in this institution just as in canmunity colleges all aver the state am. the ClCJllll'tiy you have the people who came out of the oanmunity, they were livin;J there ard also the next day there was a college where they lived ard said, "Gee, I can go to college, for the fun of it or because I like to write or finish my degree, 11 or whatever. But you have to remember the more adventuresane of those people were the people who came first. so they were aroun:1 in the early seventies. so you had 'What I consider to be a very in1::erest:ing mix of students ani as I went through Ban;Jamon State the average age stayed constant with my age an:i I came here when I was about twenty-five ani left when I was about thirty. And alloost all durin;J my time here I was the average age student. So we certainly were not twenty am we certainly had been in the \tlOrld an:i we certainly had dealt with same other power structures an1 same other bureaucracies. So we came here mre prepared I think to deal with whatever kinds of administrative things we had to deal with. But I think it went away partly because the times charged. Q: What went away? A: Twentieth century haDe-study went away partly because the times cJ:larqed and the move to the countJ:y was not quite as Q: Ani Dan Knag> left about that time? A: '!hat's right. I was lookin;J aver this thing earlier and I fOlll'Xl a piece of writin;J by Paul Johnson that I remember vaguely. 'Ibis is from the sw:vival in Springfield panpuet or booklet that was put out about when I was here. I think it was put out several years but this one, I don•t see a date right away but it1s a piece of writing ard n:m I<'napp did the graphics for it am I remember seeing it on a lot of zeroxes when I was here. It says, "I think it's probably goirq to go on getting more arxi more different everywhere. Because you don't justdrop out of cities you knc:M. You drop into sanewhere else, ITOre deeply an:i cc:atq)letely than you•ve ever been anywhere before.11 Arxi it was that ld.ni, we knew that there was a great charJ3e am -we knew' that we didn't want to live like we lived before, but there is a real ~in:J of what lUtppens next. '!he m:xiels are so few am the changes cane so fast am we were so allowed to follow our :personal whiins that c:l1arxJe am transition I think happened 1\'IUCh :rrore quickly. Q: You mean here at 8an;Jaloon? A: I mean in general, I mean in my generation but I think that this institution did not screw up that process as 1\'IUCh as a :rrore strict university would. I think probably one of the best, I'm sure that in the archives of san;rcm:m state, the blue memo loans large. 'Ih.e blue memo, authored by Bob Spencer, is a won:ierful thing ani he believed it when he wrote it ani the people believed it when they got it ani they came here. It essentially said, "If you're an academic who's tired of havi.rg your ideas not go beyon:i the ivory walls of an institution, cane here. We'11 teach you new ways ani -we will teach am we will work out into the ccmmmity." Boy, what an invitation to a lot of very good progressive, active-min:ied :people arourd the country. It was a very 'tiue thing. I always like to say that ani I'm certainly not the only one that says it but 5anganv:>n state was designed ani built with the knor.tlledge of the educational revolution of the sixties am that was true. It includes lots of good thirgs, also includes the fact that the campus is brllt in a circle so it can be well surrounded by the National Guard. BUt for the m:st part they were good thin:Js. so I don•t think the institution S't:ogled us fran beirg ourselves ani ~i.rg through our am growil'g pains. I don•t think this was conscious m anyone1s mini but the institution certainly had growil'g pains of its own arxl perl1aps that made it sanehcM institutionally :rrore sympathetic. BUt I was goi.rg to say that I think one of the D'ClSt important thin:Js or the succinct way that I've ever heard anyone putthe activities of a lot of the progressives at 8an;Ja1oon state, activists at 5angan¥:>n state, was the Professor MaJ:y Hotvedt who said that we :really believed that we could win this institution short ani sweet. In all the battles we•ve every had with institutions here was one that was so yamg an:'l so willi.rg arxl so avowedly experimental to a degree that it really seemed like maybe this could be an institution that could be won. so that the t.hiz:gs that the progressives am the leftists, the activists want to do would not always be done umer the great burden of such resistance all the time, that we could get them terrured here, we could get them jobs here, we could terrure here, we could have well instituted safe programs that could go on about their academic duties just as the history p:rogra:m does ard the math pzogram does without constantly fighti.rg for their very existence in the academj c world. Probably the best examples of people outside of 5angan¥:>n state are not familiar with 1\'IUCh of alternative education would be an example of Black studies which in universities "t:llralghout the country has had energy drained fran its mission to teach because it has had such a ~battle to remain in existence or to get on a par with other academic deparbnents an:l get m:>ney an:i furrling ani status ard da da da da. '!he same thing happened here for several programs, the two with which I was the closest with are both gone. Q: Right, what happened, you were arourd when the JSO fell apart.Did you see Work CUlture ani Society demise as well? A: No, it ha:r;:pened after I left and it transitioned into the I..aJ::or Studies Program. Partly because m::st of the faculty was gone from Work CUlture and SOCiety. 'lhe Wdqet and econanic times became such that you didn't nm cut and rehire, you nm out and filled all the slots you could. If people left you looked around and saw, well if we shuffled a little could we get alCDJ without these people or given our present enrollment, given the kini of students that we are getting nr:M, do we want to beef up another department nr:M that there is an open slot or do we want to refill it with saneone who's teaching Wcanen's Roles in Aboriginal SOCiety? 'lhe student pool for wanen's Roles in Aboriginal society ten:ied to dwindle as the seventies IOOVed on. Q: What about the JSO Prcgraln, was that the same? was it a questionof ••• A: It was partly a question of declining enrollment but it was also partly, it was :roore of a political battle. see another tenant-I think pmhaps the greatest mistake that Sangam:m state ever made was somewhere alCDJ the line for sane set of reasons it got the idea that its best asset was its worse debit, and this was an alternative school. As the years went on instead of tJ:ying to highlight that and use it as currency, here we were in the middle of Illinois, we were in Springfield, we had the legislature over our shoulder, we were a state institution and obviously it wasn•t go~ to be wholly wacky. It was not going to be a Antioch or saneplac:e like that. It was going to exist within same fairly straight parameters. But within them we had achieved a reputation of bein;J an alternative institution in manyfonns. Instead of tJ:yin;J.to play on that, instead of tJ:ying to use that to distin;Juish this institution fran all the other institutions in the state, President Spencer, to lay it all on one person, got scared and backtracked and started to hide the alternativeness of the institution, started to downplay it, started to say, ''Well yes, but there is a lot of other sblff goin;J on, we have a lot of gradUatestudents in management, public policy.11 Ani I think it has been the greatest mistake the school has made so far, was not tJ:yin} to stick it out as scmat:hirq different, tJ:yin;J so hard to fit in farther than anyone had ever been in before. Q: Ani that happened in sort of the 1975 pericxi when people began to leave am the hanest:ead.irg project cane to an erd? A: I think it probably happened sane earlier time in sane in:tividual minds. You kr'lc7tl if Bob Spencer were here and he said, ''I got tired of deferrlirg a bunch of people cut plantin:J carrots for credit. I gottired of deferdin;J people going downtc::Mn and playin;J leap frog on the sidewalk for credit. I got tired of answering the question, 'Are you all camm.mists? ' 11 I wculdn1t be unsympathetic to the guy. I'm sure that he got asked that a lot and he's not the only one. SCinewhere prec::edi.n;J the middle seventies I think the idea. began to take shape in sane 1llims that the time had come to start to downplay that. Aixi like say, I think it's the greatest mistake made here. Q: What abait Spencer incidentally if you are willin;r to talk about that? You had a fair amcmrt of contact with rum through you're being a student regent an:i beirg on the Tenure Decision camnittees. A: Right. Q: were those the two main capacities that you meant or as the editor of the Pipeline as well that you had? A: Well it all started before that. I was in the group of people who helped p:aoote the Hamest:eadirg Project because I was a fanner, I added same legitimacy I think to it. Ard I was an activist in sane general way, I wt:JU.ld help pranote concerts or things that went on on the campus. I was a very full-time student. I was arourd a lot. So I would nm into the President an:i not unlike other people in his position, President Spencer liked to kind of sin;rle out a couple of people, students that he would knc7tl. SO that he felt at least sane touch with the student body an:i I happened to be one of those people so -we had several conversations, not all of them pleasant. But all durin:J it for sane reason we never bumed our bridges with one another. We could always talk. What I was thinki.n:J abwt a particular incident where I had been up for a couple of days plannin::J a rally and by the time the rally actually happened I think that I was the lTCderator for a panel at this rally and I had done all this other preparato:cy work. '!here was a sit-in at the ern in front of the President's office. Q: What was the rally about, do you remember? A: I believe that it was in defense of Ron Ettinger. · My association is I ·remember rum lookin;J over on the wall st:an:li.ng up at the microphone that was over on the wall, there were two m::wies that were bein:J advertised an:i were playirg at san;:,amon state saneplace, How" Green was My Valley ani the other one was sc::methirg that had the word Face in it I rememJ;=..r him sayirg same:t:hi.rg about, "How green was myface?" Q: 'Ihis is Spencer or this Et:tirqer? A: I think he was describin:J himself. Ctl I knc7tl what actually may have gotten me started with Bob Spencer, I •m not sure but see this is another thing that got me started with SarganDn state. Very soon after I arrived in Sprin:Jfield, James w. }tb))rd, a fanv:JUS watergateconspirator came here to speak an:i this was his only major public a:t;paarance before the court s1:c:g:led rum for maki:rg public appearances an:i so all the networks were here ani I had been down cleaning out a hog house in Divernon. I kini of went in and took a bath and came up here and went over to the academic 1~an:i was there for kirrl of a rap session I think is what is said on the poster, with James McCord. I got to ask him a question ani that was kin:i of exciti.n:J in itself and as the day wore on and there was all this media attention we began to realize that SanganDn State had really scored a real coup in ~this guy to cane here. And certainly the next day or a coupleof days later when the judge slapped this injunction oo. McCord fran ever speaJdn;J anywhere again until there was more resolution of the case, we realized even more so llclw unique that the university was in havin:j done this. '!his was as I say one of my first experiences here ani it was a very p:::sitive one. '!be video tape, by one of the networks was edited in such a way that it looked like I was personally i.n'taviewin:J McConi on the evenin;J news or on Good Mom:in;J America, '!he Today Show or scanet:hin:J like that. '!hat was pretty fUnny. SO back to the rally ani President Spencer. '!he cnlmination of the rally was to have as many ~leWho had been incited sufficiently to go over ani sit, at the sit-in in front of the President's office. so we did ani we were there for sane tiJne. But I was by this tiJne verytired ani I had taken up a post in a small roam off to the side of the hall where the pegl?le who were sitting in were sittin;J in ani I was just exhausted. Finally the President came ani approached his office. NCM the President had three other ways I think to get into his office. He cxlUl.d have gone in any backdoor ani avoided all these peoplesittin;J on the floor. But he didn1t. He knew that they expected him to caoe through there to the official entrance to his office ard be berated by them ard so that1s what he did. He talked to them for sanetiJne ani they, like many aR1J:Y, unruly cra.-.ds, several ~le tried to talk at once. '!here was hostility ani the President of the university finally got kin:1 of fed up ani said, ''Well, enough of this, I •m goin:J back to my jab." I remember just bein:J literally elevated into the air by this remark. I flew out of the door ani landed as it ha~right as his feet ani right in his face. I said, "'!his is your jab?" I think that was my IOOSt dramatic, at least my first dramatic meetingwith Bob Spencer but sanehow we never bw:ned our bridges with one another. As tiJne went on I began to gain more legitimate power at the university. As I gained :nDre legitimate power, I calldn't be dismissed, I couldn't be written off as a crazy student because I was the only other person fran 5angam:>n state on the Board of Regents,when we sat arourrl that table other than Bob Spencer. He certainly was glad that there was a booster there, saneone who believed in the institution, sanebody who wasn't just sane government student doin;Jthis for their resume. so I was an important asset to him in that sense. I was certainly important in startin'j the sbJdent newspaper.Although we had a paper, I don't mean to demean it at all, p.lblished. off campus and in same ways it was probably the best paper that the school has ever had, '!he~· '!his was the first officially school-funded subsidized thil'g. so you weren't goin;J to toy with the person that did that. I don't knc:M, I just had sane legitimacy. So he knew it was in his best interest ani in the way we always really got al~. I think that he believed I really cared about the school ani I think he knew that I thought that he really cared about the school. sanetimes in university presidencies ard ather p:::sitions you cane for a reason, you institute your ideas, you stay a few years to get them nnmirq or maybe when you first came in you wait a few yearsani then you p.rt your ldeas into orbit, or into place. '!hen youexecute them. You stay in power lon;J et'lCllgb. to get them nmnin;J am there comes a tiJne at which you don't have anyt:hing left to do. You can be a caretaker if you want but if you don't, then it's time to move on. So Bob Spencer's terrure was shorter in the sense that when he came here it was tabula rosa. He didn't have to sperxi five years teyirg to fix anyt:hin;J. He was able to put his ideas into practice, a lot of them right away. So the course of the work of a president for him was finished sooner than it might be for someone else who c:c:mes in to rescue sanething or to chan;Je a bad situation or even just to oame in to a new situation which has been nl1'lilin;J for a 115 years. It1s a different kind of institution that they go with. Q: What about his resignation? were you privy to the back workin:Js of that situation ani heM that came about? A: By the tine that he resigned I was pretty nn.tch out of it. I was a journalist, a graduate journalism student ani teyin; to remain very apart fran any political identity, for the sake of the ethics in journalism. 'lhe ethics are that you not only don't have a conflict of interest but you don•t even have the a~of the conflict of interest. So I ceased all of my activities with the exception of the Tenure camnittee when I becane a joumalistic student, I gave up mypresidency of the student COOp. Q: You were the president? A: Twice, two terms. Yes ani anyt:hin;J else I was doirg I gave up. So I wasn't really privy at the erxi. I don't know, my lltpression is that by the time that he was gotten rid of there was-if Bob Spencer had left, if he had been asked to oame ani be a diplanat or ambassador to ED;lani in 1975, there was probably at that time still enough enezgy • Erxl of side one, Tape one A: • • . in 1975 that thin3s were still vital enough that you 'WOUld have gone out ani fourd another energetic alternative looldrx.J, appear~, SOlll'Jiin;J, directed person to cx:.me ani run the university.By the time that he left, sort of didn't matter if he left or not in same ways. It was a victory for those people who had tried to get him out all those years, a victory that they now think about a little bit with the new administration I think. But who did they get? They got sanebody to oame in who sort of gives an aura of nore traditional, stayed ambience reputation to the university, sanebody that would come in ani say, "see, this very leqitiJnate person was willin; to oame here ani be the president of San;Jaioon state university ani not only that he knows hc1tl to get 1lDlleyo II And thatIS my impression ani this is not privy to anyt:hin;J, it's just my outsider's view. '!hat is Why theybrought in lacy. So by the time Bob left there was no good reason to '1et rid of him in the sense that there was still time to save the institution. If the same shakers and ItDVerS had tried so hard to gethim out back then, there 'WOUld have been an explosion of eneJ::gy at this place ani we wall.d have gone mad, on a rampage across the count.J:y to fin:i the right person to come here, take over the helms of a shaky but dedicated sanewhat altemative institution. It 'WOUld have been glorious, there 'WOUld have been a new infusion of energy, but by the t:iJDe he was gone it was, ''Well, life will be easier in sane ways." At least the people that Bob Spencer has cane to dislike tremerdously who 13 are ercployed here will no lon;;rer be 1.llDar that yoke. '!hey won't have to always look over there shoulder, dada dada. In the end yes,those people who were against him won the battle against those peoplewho for him. So they 'WOn, they had a victor.y. But no, I was not all that privileged. Q: Let me get sane dates straight. You were a student :rege~It in 1976-77 academic year? A: '!hat SOl1lXIs good. Q: '!hen you -were on the Tenure Decision Committee 1975-76 ani 1976-77 ani 1977-78? A: Right, the lon;rest tenn a person can serve on the Tenure Committee is three years. Q: So both of those positions you were elected by the student senate or the student body? A: 'lhe student body elected me to the Board of Regents under the law that allCMed students to sit as non--votin3' members of the govemirgboards of the mrlversities in Illinois. '!here was no method of selection, just that once they're there, they can be there and dada dada. so the other institutions that were part of the Board of ~~ISU, Illinois state university and Northern Illinois university, both had sane kin:i of bani picked way of gett~ the student a1 there. '!hat it was the vote of the student council but had to be approved by the president or sanet:hing like that. Here it was a general el.ectia1, direct delooctacy. Yes, I won the election to the boaJ:d position. 'Ihe other position, the Terrure Decision Committee positial said that sbJdents shall be rec:x:armerKied by the pl:ogl:aiD and then saneone shall decide ard I don't remember if it's the Faculty senate or the student Senate, I •m not sure who was S1JR.XlSed to make the decision but in the writi.rg of the regulatia1 or guideline it never said that you had to be a student of the program to be rec::c:t'lllllC by the prcgzam. I think that was assumed. 5o I ran aroun.:i a:rxi got like half a dozen programs to naninate me, so that I would stam a rather ~chance of bein;J elected. Q: Ani that was allowed and went through? A: Yes, there was no way to stop it. So there I shc::Med up at wherever the decision was made with all of these rec::ommen:1ations and so it became pretty easy for them to choose. Q: so Your first year on the cx::mnittee was 1975-76 right, that was just followi.rg the Faculty 6 claiOOr? A: Yes, I think so, I think Faculty 6 probably was concluded the summer that I came. Q: Right, they were denied tenure in May of 1973 ani they petitioned the hearing board in August of 1973. Spencer held up the decision in March 1974 and then I think there was a Faculty 6 rally the fall that / you came, is what I have. so I guess it was the follCMirg fall that you got involved in the Terrure Decision canmittee. You came in the fall of 1973, so it was two falls late:r that you got involved? Yes, I think that Faculty 6 rally was maybe fall 1974, but I could have that wrorl9'. so what was that experience all like, work:in:J on the Tenure Decision Camni.ttee? A: It was the most denv:lcratic fonnn that I have ever been a part of. It was an exquisite opportunity which mre people should have unier sane circumstances but I •m sure that the first year I was on I was a very jittery student and I think because of that I decided that I would do very good research and so I did very good research. I logged a lot of time in the persormel files ani when it came time to deliberate I had very good notes on all these people. Ani what had started out I think as nctivated by my insecurity as bein;J a first year member ani a student member turne:i out to be a very pJWerful method for oon:iucti.n;;r myself at these meetings and I used it in later years. It was a very effective th.in;r. Bob Spencer used to like to call it the "Doug Kamholz hun:1red hour rule, he'd spend fifty hours in the files ani fifty hours at the debate table and that's hCM you produaed tenure for a c::x:~Uple a dozen professors, the hun:1red hour rule." It was the form of the tenure decision process once it reaches the mrl.versity-wide Tenure Decision camnittee was to brirg up nanes and I have no idea hc:1..tr ~Idon•t knew whether we did it alphabetically or ranbnly or what, but you'd talk about someone and you'd talk ahout someone else in a fairly, opened unstructured way. So you1d sort of begin to get goirg and then what I really wanted to describe was the idea that at saoe point after talking about a particular person for a gocxlly ler:gth of time a vote would be taken and regardless of the outcc:me of the vote, if the person up for tenure is Mary Smith and I hope there was never a Mary smith on the faculty, an amitrary imaginaey name, and the vote was I think there were eight or nine of us, if the vote was eight to ooe or seven to one and you were the only one on one side that you wanted and evecyone else didn•t want to give tenure to her vice versa, ycu could alwa¥5 call for recx::msideration. You could talk liDtil ycu were blue m the face ani ycu could have another vote ani if the vote was still seven to one and you went hane and you didn•t sleep well you would cane back and you'd say, "I have to talk about Mary Smith again." You'd say, "Can't you see the contrilJution that this person-can1t you see the value of this or can't you see the reasons for that, 11 or whatever it was you were a:rguin; bu:t it was the idea that there was-even though we were ~to get sanetime in the spr.irg for these people who up for tenure certainly have a right not to have to wait forever and that we had a job to perform. It wasn't sjJllply a discussion on hCM many arqels can get tenure on the head of a pin. In its oanponent parts it seene::l erDless and that was good. I mean it was worrlerful you could talk forever about these things. Ani it was a very excitir:g process to be a part of. NCM certainly there were agerrlas, people did have agerrlas. '!here were administrative people there, there were facultypeople there. I was there with whatever ~ial agenja I had as a student which may sjJllply mean that in looki.n;;J and assess.irg the people who are be.irg considered for tenure that I may give much mre weicpt to student evaluations or in weighing saneone's academic publicat1on sorts of criteria and their teaoh.irg criteria and their public service criteria that I may give llX)re weight to than to teachi.rq. I don•t knc:M if I did that but aeyway people had their own aqema an:i there was sanetimes same very cauplex moves that went on. Q: Do you want to talk about any of those ocanplex m:::wes? A: No. Q: Do you want to talk about who you worked with on those camnittees ani personalities? A: No, except to say that the names are all written down sanewhere. Q: SUre, I've got names. A: I 1d like to think that we all at least part of the time rose above our agendas ani participated in sanet:hirg that was true today. It was a fine exanple of a fonnn, private not public, but a fonnn in which we tried to set aside the power that sane of the people in the roam had over other people in the roan an:i have a debate in which no nenber was oppressed by any other member. It was in that kind of oontext that you can qo a lon:J way towards fil'din.;J truth ani if not for the outcane at least for the process of that, it will always be a treasured thing for me ani a m:xlel that I really would like to see in place in other situations where F. have to make a decision. By the thini year that I was on the c::cnmu.ttee, of course, ani I don't knc::w they thought this would never haJ;Pm but it was quite unusual for a student to gain sufficient whatever to get on the oamnittee ani then still sperd three more years here, so I don't think anyone envisioned a student l:Jein;J a third-year member of the canmittee an:i the few people who were on the camni.ttee ~third year who had been there also three years • • • Q: 'lhere 'trlere people who carried through, other faculty people? A: 'lhere was like the u.s. Senate in that there are staggered tenns, so that you always have a fe~~~ people that have been there three years, same two years ani sane one year. 'Ihen there are constant members. I believe that John Kaiser, for exanple, was a constant member. I'm not positive if Ibil Kerxlall was a constant member, maybe John was the only one but I •m not positive of that. But I had a lot of power by ~ third year. Nonnan Hinton was the chainoan of the ccmnittee I think am in ~memo:t:y it was the most pc::1IISr I exercised at the mrl.versity ani I •m proud of what I did. I think that I never lost a lot of sleep over the decisions that we made ani we let qo of same people and we kept some people ani in both cases ani some of those cases there were great disputes. But partly because of the process an:i partly because of the outoane I have never had great misgivings about anything I did. Q: Were there particular people that you think you were veryinfluential in either .•• A: Yes, I think there is saneone at this mrlversity who has tenure because I was on that cx:mnittee, I think that's true. 'lhere's nothinq wrong in me sayirg that because it was saneone that I believed in ani someone that I fought for am saneane was definitely not guaranteed to get tenure who is l'lOifl a tenured member of the faculty. Q: You don't want to mentim any names? A: No, I wcul.dn't want to mentim the name but yet I think that's t:J::ue. You knc:M what I don1t knc:M in subsequent years, l'lOifl Tenured ccmni.ttee people have come to me am said, ''Well, we've got so am so as a student sitti.rg at the oamnittee l'lOifl but boy we sure miss you. 11 And I thought that it was very necessazy for me to be there, where else is there a vot.in:J student at the Tenure Decisiat canmittee? Where else? Most places students don't even knc:M the first thirg about tenure but here there are students m the P.rt::g:tam camnittee am they are involved, there are students a1 the Cluster camuittee am they are involved. But people have come am said, "So am so is llOW' a student am he or she is a nice person but we miss you am it would be nice to have you back.11 What I started to say before I got interrupted by myself I think I was absolutely neoessa:ty with a perspective nobody else had an:i since there was only one student, that student really does have to be s't.ronJ an:i articulate. So I hope that there is continued interest or at least enough anv::mg the student body that good people have IlCM been put in positions like that. Q: And during those three years, the decisions of the TJ::X:: were generally upheld by the administratiat? A: Almost always. '-, Q: I think there was one year in there Where Spencer gave tenure to two people who • • • A: Who we had not reaanme:rxled for tenure. l!he Tenured Decisim CCirmnittee is a bit of a misncmer since we don•t decide, we :reoamnen:l. '!he year-I don't even :rernemb=o..r the two people involved but I do remember the year that he reversed two of our decisions. Q: It was Robert DrNorak an:i Iee Hoinacki. was there an;;rer about that, about those reversals? A: Yes, there was. It was as-the president tried to make it as tmhurtful as he could. He didn't deny tenure to people that we recanmerxled, he gave tenure to people that we didn't :reoamnen:1 arxi he didn't do it just for his associate Lee Hoina.cki but there was mre than one person. ~!here just wasn't one person sirqled out. Q: I see, lee was an associate. A: I believe that's the way it was. But yes, of course there was, we were upset. We had gone a lorg way an:i spent a lon:r time in t:tying to-as a matter of fact I remember the president tJ:yin:J to come in and justify haVing done that ard he made scme charts in which he filled in little boxes an:i he was t:tying to show that he had gone about this in sare scientific methodical way. But the lasting :iJnpressim was that lee Hoinacki was a friend of Bob Spencer's an:i that other guy, what's his name? Q: Robert Dworak, D-W-0-R-A-K. A: 'nlat's right, I remember the name, that he's the luckiest man in the "WOrld, that Spencer needed sanebody else's name to tack on to the reversals ard he just ha:r;pmed to be there. SO he is a man who would have been denied tenure at the university if it hadn't been that year and that time and Bob Spencer•s desire to give tenure to Lee Hoinacki. Q: Did you feel that decisions-were there pressures put on you? I knc:M and I think technically there isn't supposed to be but were you supposed to narrow out the mnnber of people up for tenure down to a certain anomt of people who received tenure. Was that kirrl of pressure put on you by the administration? A: No. Q: You were just dealin;J totally in the abstract in teJ:ms of what these people's qualities were and whether this in:lividual deserved tenure or not and you could theoretically, all those nanes that you were aonsiderin;J could receive it in that year? A: Yes, although it's like someone who goes to 'WOrk chec:Jdn;J apricots or grapefruits on the assembly line. You are expected if not by your boss, by silnply the law of nature that in all the pineapples you see all day a few of them won't make the grade and it's the same kind of sense pavades the ccmnittee. I think that and I don't remember of anyone bein:J surprised when we didn't give tenure to a few people, I mean camnittee members. So in that sense the law of averages says that not all these people would get it. '!here was I think a significant fluctuation between the percentage of people reccanmended, not recormnen::1ed in the years that I was there. I think maybe one year w didn't recamnend eight out of the twenty-five names and then the next year we didn't recxmnen:i only four out of the same group. so that's a laxge fluctuation and I 1lUlSt admit-! think those numbers are about right and I IliUSt admit that the year that we reoamnended almost eveeybody did kird of feel furmy to me, seemed kind of odd that of all those people only a few didn•t make the grade. Q: You said earlier to me that one of the ¥earB was the year that all the radicals were up for tenure. was that m one year or did that haweD aver the three-'year span that you were on it? A: I think it was mainly the seocni and third year that I was there. Although I'd really have to see the lists but I think it was the second and third year. 'lhe first year I think it•s kind of a blur to me. It was such a experience. You are locked in this roan ani there is nobody else around and it's S\Jrday ani you are ta1ld.n:J away and all the biq guns are there. It can tum your head. Q: I guess I'm interested about like earlier you said it was about 1975 that the shift began to happen in tenns of the institution beingalternative or not and then by the secon:i two years that you were involved in the TOC was the year that all the radicals came on. Do you want to talk at all about ~tsort of the dynamics were ani hew those decisions were made, what the atJooeq;ilere was, what sort of role you played in that whole thin;J ard maybe pe:centages of h.ow' many of those radicals sneaked t:hrcugh ard haw many of them were turned away at that point. A: I!xlk it up, there were very few people who were turned away. At a time I :renaol:er we qat a letter from sanebody who was out in Oregon at the university of Oreqon ar.d it was just after our tenure decisions had caDe out. Ani the president had en:lorsed them a.rn she wrote ar.d said, "Ban;Jall'On state is st.an:iing' as a si.n;Jular exception a.z:cund the oauntJ:y. '!be radicals, the scx:::ial ists, the marxists are qettinq axed everywhere ard you just gave tenure to a half a dozen of them." Q: Who were they, do you want to name in::tividuals? Who in your mind were the radicals? A: No, I'd want to see a list. Q: I've qat a couple of lists here. ret me see what I've qat. '!be Pipeline for the 1977 year. A: Fourteen profs get tenure. Q: Ani for the 1978 year. so those 'Wtlllld be the two last years,right? A: Right, those would be the two that I'm t:hin1d.rg of. Q: ret me tum this off for a few mi.nu:tes. (tape stopped) NCIII we are back ar.d we are look:ing at the Pi~ine for the 1977 year. A: '!be paper which has the great motto. "Get the news before the news gets you." 'lhat•s nw favorite cantrib.Ition to PiP!±ine. Fd Cell is not exa.ct.ly your nonnal professor of J;ililosophy, he sort of went off in sane different directions, in sane non-tra.ditianal directions• .Ani we had to fini sa:ae way to make a majority of the committee urrlerst:ar¥1 that they were viable a.rn applicable ard that Fd knew what he was talld.rg atx::ut. 'lhat statement could probably be said about all the peqll.e that I will name now. Like Fd Cell was not a cam car.cyi.rq Marxist, he's not Bob Sipe with a big red star ar.d a mau hat but he still was sc.:meane who was teachirg in very alternative ways ard leanin;;r toward mre liberal, progressive leftist terde:ncies. so he would be one about whan there might be sane political a.niloosity. since he's the first one the list, Michael Ayers was very involVEd in fighti:rq the leqislature a.rn the C'.atlmeJ:.'ce Chmmission on rates for utilities, very involVEd ard helpful to student pmtests. He was given tenure. It does ldr.d of make me shiver to read the names of people who qat axed. SO fourteen got tenure. ret's see the people who didn't, now let's get the other year's paper. Q: Here you go, this is the 1978 Pipeline. A: Right, the 1978 Pipeline in which we have-Marilou is not a starxm.:rd teacher. Q: Marilou Burnett? A: Yes. Ron Ettinger, saDE'OllS about whan there was great turm::>il in the mrl.versity for years ani another situation where, let's see I was saying sanethin:.J earlier about progLatDS at the university, about heM it's hard to oorrluct your missions and education if you are alwaysteying to justify your progLam, if your program is always \.1I'rler the threat of beirg cut. '!here are certainly iniividuals in the mrl.versity who fall in the same definition that they -were always under such pressure ani they were suin;J or beiD:J sued or you know whatever, that you have to won:Jer when you look at their perfo:nnance you have to say, ''Well maybe we have to consider the fact that this person was essentially working a part time job trying to save his ass." SO certainly that kin:1 of thing would ~ly to Ron Et:ti.n:Jer. He was sanebody who was besieged, he sort of liked beirg besieged, but it was still tJ:ue and he spent a lot of tUne and energy which ot:heLwise mighthave gone towards sane nx:a:e exclusive kim of educating if he hadn't been embroiled hilllself in a lot of t:hi.n:Js. J. Michael Iennon is not the traditional instructor, I think saoebody who probably has more traditional than na;t people. John H.mkirs as does Michael Ayers, they c:x:ane fran a weird econanic sect, the institutionalists ani they got courses in institutional econanics in the core of the econanics program at Sargancn State with quite a coup. It's pLObably, you'd only find that at a dozen tmiversities across the unite:l states. It's gone nt:M, it's been ren¥JVed fran the core but these guys are wacky. I mean they're wackybecause they are Marxists, they are wacky because they devoted a great many years of their life to leam a small unusual discipline and it does not have stan:iinj in a lot of places. SO both with Michael Ayersand John MLmkirs you have the idea that you have the situation where yoll had to go back ani sayI ''Well okayI letIS examine the legitimacyof their academic stripe," ani so that makes it a different kim of case. Just like sanebody who did all of their, what we call publication on film instead of writfn3". Sargancn state1s Tenure Decision camnittee, ani I don't know, I hear pretty amitraeymathematical t:hirgs alx:ut sane terrured decisions at other universities. You just add it up. Hc:M many students taught, how manypublications, or who judged the juried article that this person got to a:ppear ani who was their major professor? And Bangam:m state was verydifferent fran that ani I hope it still is very different fran that because we really tried to get into the hearts and min:ls of these people to find out are they worthy. some people would say that we were more judgmental in that sense, but that's a more God-like t:hir:g to do than just say, ''Hey, if you come here you've got to publish or you don't get tenure," they wait six years and then look at them and if they've published you give them tenure and if they haven't youdon't and that's it. sane people might say that's ItDre amitrary but less God-like. But we really tried to assess people. Michael Quam, a lon;J st.arrling rad at Sargancn state, Regan Smith, another definitely out of the main stream person. Probably that a:pplies to Cbarles strozier in histoLy although not associated with a radical communitybut still another example of SOirebody because of his involvement with Psychohi.stoJ:y that you had to go back and not get all traditional about the criteria that you used. 'Ihere must be sane other names here scmewhere. Oh, I skipped aver Ron sakolsky who is on this list, so however many the list is nt:M fran the year that you've just done, this is an eighteen granted tenure. NC7.r1 that1s a big slice of eighteen that you•ve got six or seven names there, eight there -were. 'Ihe onlybig radical who was still here who went up for tenure ani is not on that list is Sipe. Q: '!hat was the first year you -were ••• A: '!hat was after I left, I think, that Sipe was up for tenure the next year in 1979. Q: Ani in terms of the a'boosPlere or the attitudes about those decisions ani part of those names you•ve mentioned you said sane of these are radicals in the sense of political ideology ani others aren't. A: Right, sane of them were nme radical in the way they taught ani the way they con:iucted thenselves as academicians was out of the ordinary. So hC7.rl do you deal with that? well, hC7.rl you deal with it is if you want the person to have tenure or a shot at it ¥00 have a cc:mnittee that gets aonvin:led that they shcW.d look at t:hin;Js in a different way. But I interrupted you. Q: Well I guess I 1m just tzyirg to get to what the attitudes of the atm:Jsphere was aroLU'Xi those kirrls of issues at that point because it seems that the period that you -were on the tenure decision camnittee was what you also called sort of a turning point for the institution in terms of where it stood on the issues of innovation ani whether it was an alternative place ani whether it shcW.d have radicals aroLU'Xi or not. well I don•t knc::M', maybe you don•t have no nme to say ani yousort of broached on those issues but I •m just sort of seein;J if there is anymore that you might want to say in terms of kin::l of what the bottan line was at that point. So those people that didn1t get through that says saneth.irg right there in terms of where t:hi.rgs stood for the institution. Yru say that Spencer was drawirg back at that point, still in terms of who was l:Jei.rg granted tenure, there was the roan for people who represented Sargana'l as an alternative institution to remain. A: Yes. Q: I don•t want to be putting words in your m:::uth but just tzying to • 0 0 A: I finally l'lC1tl get the gist of what you are saying. I don•t think that what you are sort of hinting at couldn't happened. I think that if Sargana'l state had still been up for grabs in 1977 ani 1978 that the administration ani its forces on the Terrure Decision Camnittee might well have came in with nme diehard dedication to see tenure granted the way they wanted to see it perhaps. I think that by that time it was going to be nore possible to make the kin::1s of alt.ernative arguments that neede:i to be made for alternative educators ani ~ them not an alte:rnative tenure because the crux of the institut~on was not at stake. It wasn't the matter of people like John Kaiser comingin ani seein;J his values terribly threatened because if two nore leftists got tenure at San;Janv:>n state it would tip the balance ani he'd be fired. ani they'd hire Bertel. Olman who can•t get into the University of Marylani to oc::me here ani be the VPAA.. It wasn't critical in that sense as it might have been back during the Faculty 6. I think back in those days the administration probably felt like it was ItDre in an even pitched battle ani it was veey inp:>rtant for the administration to not let too many of these people get tenured too quickly so that they would becane such a majority of people, such a force. By the time that I got there I think that wasn't critical. I think that it was just a matter of sane ~leWho ~the administration in the case of sane certain people who were up for tenure just sayilg, "'Ibis person did this thin;J ani it's goilg to take a lot to cawince 1l'e to eradicate this thing until I get a lot of infonnation to the oontrar.y. 'Ibis thing this person did, this thingthat desecrated the university or harmed it or embarrassed it or whatever, is goilg to stick in nr:1 craw." But you oc:W.d oc::me in with enough info:nnation finally ani maybe, possibly to oome in with sufficient information to qet that out of their craw. or let them both knc:M they could get a majority saneplace else. It's a fascinating process. I was looki.rq at the people who didn't gettenure ani I.ouise Allen was one of them, I'lOirl I think she ocx::upied as high an administrative post as any female did on canp.lS and she was not reo:::amneJ."¥ by the camnittee for terrure. Q: Do you think that there was a sexist basis to that? A: Oh, no I don't, I don't believe that. I guess what I meant bythat was that, no, I think she was a pretty moderate person. What it really started out to do, she's just the first name on the list but there's a guy in here, I think his names is Charles stewart, I think that Olarles stewart who was in the HOC pxograin, Human Developnentcounseling, I think it's him, he left a tenured position in west Virginia to ccme here ani not a youD;J man. He, because of his lorg years of service, came up for tenure vexy quickly once he got here. It was two or three years am he was up for tenure ani he didn•t try to delay it rut in fact he hadn•t done anyt:hinJ since he'd been here. well that's not true but he hadn't done enough. He hadn't done ~WJ:'01'J3', not a radical that1s for sure. But he en:ied up not beirq :recammen:ied for tenw:e ani was I guess what I •m tryilg to say is sanetilnes the reasons-I •m tryinq to be specific about how sanetimes the reason that saneone isn•t reocmnerxied or is :reoanmerded, eveeyonein the roan oc:W.d say, "'Ibis is really too bad, this is reallyunfortunate. ItIs unforbmate this person isn•t goilg to be recx:muDerded by us ani we have the :pc7tJer to do it ani we are not goilg to do it arxi that1s too bad." 'Ihe self same people saying that but you looked at the record arrl you oculdn•t see that he'd done anything. on one bani you'd say, "Well how could you expect him to do, he just got here ani da dada da." You'd say, ''Well the :rules, he 1mew what he was getti.rg into. can•t be in the plannirg stages forever. He knew he would have to show sane execution by then." so the reasons really varied ani you don•t go through the list alphabetically ani say, "Okay, Adams, yes, no, Bartlett, yes, no." You ern up with groups of people who are candidates for tenure, ern up gettilg grouped ani when these three people are about the same. Maybe you start out with sanebody who is virtually a God or Goddess, they've done everyt.hirg right, everyone loves them, they are politically nn:lerate ard they really are great, you know', a great asset to the institution. so then you can put them up on the top ani then you begin ard you start to group other people l.mtil finally you have a list of all the people for carrlldates for tenure an the board. '!hen you take one white line of chalk arxi put the line of chalk sa:newhere. You see, the people have been arran;Jed by groupin;J them often because all the people who an the first vote were voted eight to nc:rt:hin;J1 or ten to nothi.n;1 arxi then there are a group of people who were voted seven to one for tenure, six to two. So eventually by that 1d.rxi of declension you have all the names an the board. If it's nine people it's four, five, ard with eight people it's three, five. I think a tie goes to tenure. I don't remember that. BUt obviously at sane point when you get to the votes that are three to five in favor of tenure you have saneone who is not goin;J to be reca:mnen::led ard then down to zero, eight where everyone is against that person. so then those names begin to fonn a list on the blackboal:d ard you can look at it ard you can see where the white line goes. Who are we :recommen:ling ard who aren't we recamnerxiing? '!hen you start to get same graphic idea of how the hell did so ard so get way up here, how did this person getvoted seven to one for tenure when this person down here who's barelyscratching through at five, three isn't up there. 'Ihen you start to move~arcurrl but eventually you have a list of names with a white line sanewhere in it. Q: Ani literally that's how decisions were nad.e, I mean there was things went up on the blackboard ard lines were drawn, arxi votes were taken again? A: Right ard I'm sure there are cases ard sane names that I justmentioned where there were easily half a dozen votes taken, easily if not twice that many. Ani you'd talk as lon;r as you wanted to talk arrl people do nat interrupt you, people do not get .i.lrpitient. Ctl I suppose in sane extreme yes1 but not in the years I was there and I was a student. Q: one person was the chair in those different years? A: Right. Q: Ani Kaiser was there as the VPAA? A: Yes, ani like I say Ken:iall was there and I'm nat sure if he was Bel:Vil'q a three-year tenn or a pennanent seat or what or if he left,I •m not clear on that. I remember that M.mkirs was an the camnittee arxi then he was off the camnittee because he was up for tenure. '!hat may be true of Ayers. I remember Dem1is voss was on the oc:mnittee. Nonnan Hinton was very strorg. Hinton ard I got to be kin:1 of a team as the years went an. It was really my only connection with him too, was nat a literature sbJdent but he was the wise elder and I was the yc:JIJl'q felleM. I remember Hinton saying, ''Well, yc:JIJl'q people are wiser than old people because when they came into the 'WOrld there was a greater store of knowledge." What else? Q: I was just givirg you sane tiJne to be sure there isn't ll'Ore. I'd like to hear about the Pipeline and what that was all about. A: 'lhe Piwine owes its existence to Bemyl Hinacaqe. Bemyl is now I believ'i press secretaJ:y for Jerry consentino lNho is the state txeasurer. And Bemyl was a ale-time Nieman Fella.f, one of the highest honors you can receive in journalism, it's an invitation to c::a:re to Harvard. and sb.1dy. En1 of side Two, Tape one A: Bemyl has his own news service and he was invited to came aut and teach a little jcurnalism class at the university. 'lhe idea was that if they were lucky he would be able to generate enough interest to start a newspaper and he would be a faculty sp::msor for a newspaper. I had decided. previously in the sprirq of 1977, maybe the fall of 1976, I'm not positive, one of those two semesters I took the newswritirq course frau Bernyl and joined him in teyirq to put together the newspaper. Bernyl was very k.ird to me. we had to write stories very early on in the class and I wrote about the public affairs, well we all wrote about the Public Affairs center, that was the assigunent. out of all the articles he read., he liked one by a fella.f lNho also I think became a jcurnalist, lNho had gone to the trouble of clirribirq up on top of this cx::mpleted. structure and then he liked. mine and I don't remember why. a:rt I remember I get it back: and it had red. marks all over it, every line had a red. mark and there was circles and dots and ecli.tirq marks. He came up to me and said, "I):)n't feel bad. If I didn't think that you had a chance to really take this up as a profession I would not go to the trouble I just went to." So he and I beg'an to put out =~ineand he did lOOSt of the work I think. I was just really and he was so competent that it was one of those situations like we have with children where it1s easier to do it yoorself than tty to instruct the child. Q: '!his was befm:e you were in the PAR program? A: well yes, this was k.ird of a little bit of sort of self pranation, I figured. I have a better chance gettirq-I mean why in the world they were going to let scmebod.y like me into the Public Affairs Reporting' Pn:lgram was beya:d me, no experience, not the kin:i of person lNho becaDes a reporter. so I kn.ew I'd have to do scme pz:etty fast foot work to beoane a member of the Public Affairs ~Prog:tam. '!hey used sane real reporters f:rcm downtown at the capitol to help select and int:el::view them. 'lhe applicants for the program were interviewed. he:te in the spring by real reporters in ad:lition to the academics, so whatever I thought I could get by with, with the acade.rdos, because they 'WOUld be sympathetic to saneone lNho had intellectual backq.ra..u'd, I wasn't qoirq to get by with these hard nose reporters, so I was willing to do anything. I had decided I wanted. to be a reporter so I didn•t want anything to stop me. In fact when it came time to get reo:llllerx:lations to get into the program I used. Bob Spencer and Frank Matsler, Executive Director of the Boat:d of Regents. '!hose were two of my three recommerxiors and I figured., you krlaw, these people would have these hordlos staring you in the face and maybe they would be 1lm'e sympathetic. I learned. a lot about political power when I came here. I kn.ew sanet.h.ing' about it befm:e I arrived too. As a matter of fact when I was int:e.rviE!'Wed for the graduate progt:am in journalismthey came to me after the interview ani said, ''We are here on a mission fran the working press members of the selection cc:m:nittee of graduate pn:gLam ani we are here to extract fran you a pranise that you wonIt do anythirq WL'On:Jo II Q: Who was this that came to you? A: 'lhe academics, Bill Miller would be the chief aJI¥lJ'g them, I'm not sure who else. Q: '!hat you won't do anythirq wrorg? A: Yes, that you aren't just usin;J this as a political stage, that you aren't goin;J to wait until you have ao:ess to the GeneLal. Assembly ani use that reporters a.o;:,ess to collect all the wrong facts, to only further your political erds. NC711 in the interview for the graduate progLam they had asked me, ''What would you do if you had to report on scanet:hi.rg that you cared a lot about?" 'lhe example was the ERA, a pure ani obvious or avid or whatever supporter of that. ''What do youdo?" Ani I had given them an answer. I said that you just use sufficient annmt of CCJm'l'teLbalanoe. You realize that your are biased, you never go into the stm:y t:hi.n1dn:J that you are objective.You realized you•re biased so you berD over backwards to get the other side am thereby you terXl to counteract for your natural bias. Ani even though you think you are leaning to the anti-ERA forces it may come out even in the ern. Q: Where did the reputation of you bein;J a political come fran? A: Probably fran evecythin:J that I had done since I had been here. Fran the way I looked, fran the way I lived ani I had lorg hair, lorg beard ani wore the scruffy clothes. I used to come in here covered with pig manure fran the farm and sell eggs and it was obvious I didn't have any ncney. My name was attached to several thir:gs in town, the cooperative movement in town which was always viewed as ~political and radical ani anythirq else that I had done in publ1c. And I distinctly remember that on my interview for the graduate program in journalism was on a satuJ:Cay. I got a haircut on 'Ihursday evening, went hane ani trimmed my beard, picked up my suit from the tailors on Friday ani went to the inteJ:view on saturday ani it was the toost dramatic, other than my birth I think, perhaps the toost dramatic c:barY:Je of status I'd ever experienced in my life. It was quite scanet:hi.rg. so all these people came ani they took me to a little roan ani they told me to never tell anyone about this ani then they made me pranise I'd be a good boy. And [what] they had for reasons I'11 never un:iersta:nd or perhaps because of the stature that the people who reoanmerrled me to the PLogrant, the academics had gottento an aLgUlDI!t1t with the working press. 'they had p.tt up an aLgUlDI!t1tfor me ani they had then agreed to come ani secure this pranise. '!heysaid, "If you'll just pranise that you are not goin;J to use this for your own political ern, we'll give you the last seat in the PLO'J!'a1ll ani we have to be able to take this assurance back to the working members." 25 Q: Ani that meant you had to sever your oonnections with the cooperative m:wement in t:atm? A: No, I did that on my own, I don't think that's what they were ~about. I think they just wanted a statement, you know, of good fa.J.th. Q: What about the cooperative IlDVE!IIlE!l1t in town? You were the president of Spoon River Coop for two years? A: Yes. Q: Ani you p.lblished, what was it called£irqfield cooperative and conm.mi.~ News, a series of twelve news 1 , mailed out to coopmembership of six hundred. A: Yes. Q: You want to talk about all that? A: SUre. Part of the Blue MenD said that if you came here to teach you will go out into the world, you will apply your skills ani trade an::l knowledge an::l that really haWened in Sprirqfield. ItIs still ~'the legacy of that is still here. 5o part of what they did and~pr:iJnarily to Ral:r;h stone ani Dick Johnston once that the cooperative m::wement was begun in town. Ani Dick and Ralph had gone to a conference in Toronto and in academics they had been to lots of conferences. Ral:r;h, I think, tells this story of walki.rg into this hotel in university Buildi.rg in Toronto. '!here at the registrationdesk as there is a registration desk at every conference, there along with the paper and the pens and the cards and the name tags was a bushel of apples and it said take one. Ani that was the original inspiration of the rest of the conference. Ralph ani Dick came back and they were all fired up and we started to do this thi.n;J. '!his all happened before I got here, I was not here at the beqinnin:J but the cooperative seemed to be such a worrlerful little ••• you could do them arxi feel radical but you could pt:auote them and claim theyweren't. It had that kin:i of the dilemma of the left, you know, that is heM can you be a leftist, how" can you be people oriented arxi lie to them about the fact that you are a marxist or socialist and pass yourself off as a progressive or a liberal. 'Ibis had always been the great dilemma.. But it had that sense, it was a place to put radical eneJ:9Y because it was radical to fonn the cc:n:poration and fin:i a place to rent and make contact with all the thin;Js we had to do but at the same time what we were doin;J was opening' a book and craft store. Ani we didn•t pranote the violent overt:hrow of anythi.rJ3'. so it was a goodmeetirq grouni for people of various levels of radicalism I think in Spr~ield and various levels of enieavor. '!here were professorsfran 5arqalta'l state who used to oame in and they each had a section of the store, the bookstore, the Spoon River Bookstore. Mark Heymanwould do education I think and people who that was their area of expertise. Q: Would ot'der the books and decide what should be there and such? Douglas Kamholz A: Yes, they did ani then they'd c::cme d.c:Jwn ani arrange them on the shelf, it was just very beautiful. Spoon River was the m:>ther of all in the sense that it had a pennanent location downt.c7tm, plblic telephone, address, open five or six days a week. so even though I don't know maybe King Harvest, they started first, but in the long sense of thi.rgs Spoon River was the center because it had that ki.txi of pe;nnanence. so lots of thi.rgs operated out of there. '!he first gay organization in Sprirgfield I think operated out of there. 'Ihat was its mailing address. 5aDebody would come atee every two -weeks ani pick up the one or two letters. Ani lots of other organizations operated out of there. Spoon River had a mimeo machine and by God you would have thought it was a sq:histicated IlM zerox down here, you know. 'Ihat was the only one in town, unless you knew h<::1tl to scam at the university. so if you wanted. sc:anet:hi.rg nrl.meog:rcqile you came d.c:Jwn there ard you made xour masters and used the machine. we at various tiJnes had other off1ces operating there. we'd give them a little bit of the backroc:m, or a oorner of this or a drawer in a desk to so and so. '!here would be a drawer in the desk you know marked such ani such, Springfield wanen•s whatever. Ani this was at a time when thin;Js like SOjourn House which today are huge physical structures with 1a:.tqe staffs that are actually payin;J, this was the tine when they were nothin;;J more than a drawer in a desk at Spoon River COOp. Q: What other organizations were offspr~? A: well there was the film society, where people would subscribe an:l there WCJUld be a series of a dozen or fifteen. Q: Shoestrinj? A: Shoestri.rg Film SOCiety. 'lhere was a printin:J ooop, the mack 'lhumb Printirg. Maybe in this book over here, there was a wauen•s poeb:y ani writin;J organization the name of which escapes me right l'l.C7tl. '!hey put out a book every year. Q: Oh, we have their reoc:n:ds. I dan1t know either. A: M:lon ani stars, Crescent stars, I Am Wcmm. Q: It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, I thought it might c::cme to us. A: Squeaky Wheel, that was sanet:hi.n:J I remember. Q: What was Squeaky Wheel? A: I don't know, I'll have to look it up. seventeen, Squeaky Wheel. ''We hope to create a democratically nm user oontrol place where people can meet, talk, eat, cu:gue, create, 'WOrk, build, share, othel:wise focus dynamic energies to enrich Sprirqfield• s social and cultural life." It's a non-profit ooffee house at 613 E. Capitol. 'Ihis was an interim organization. Squeaky Wheel was in the same building that later housed RudolJ?b:'s Bean, which I thought was a cute name for a ooffee house but I think I was in the minority but unfortunately I prevailed an:i it was called the Bean. But I don't see the wcmen's writi.rq ~· '!here's COOkie Monster ray care Cooperative. At the beg~an:i for years this was a cooperative thing where the parents wculd came every once in awhile am take care of the kids. I didn't have any kids, I was only involved because I would go there once in awhile. I lent hiJn a television for a coupleof years. remember goin;J to visit a friend of mine who's a football fan in ca:rbomale an:i I went to pick up the 'IV to take down there so he and I could watch a game. I don't know when if I ever felt worse. '!here was this nob of tiny little people followinq me to the door, clutching on nr:1 pant leq sayin;J, ''Where is that man goin;J with our 'IV, what's he doing with our TV?" Arrl there was the Springfield Cooperative, the Housin;J COOp which was an attempt to create cooperative housing for students at ~ state. Actually it was an attempt to obviate the mandate of the state that we wculd not have housin;J at ~state was what it really was. I involved in int:erviewin;J people who came here to apply for the Q: were you involved in that? A: Yes, I was involved. in it. Q: What was your role? A: Well, I was a charter :member of the board of the Housin;J COOp but was job as housin;J director, Ernie Eaton bein;J one that eventually got it. He came fran the Housing COOps in Austin, Texas where there is extensive cooperative housing at the university of Texas. And he left here to go on to Washington. I think for a while he re:mcdeled houses and I think he is back into, well I'm not sure. He's still out east,I think he's in washlngton. But yes, I remember i.nt:aviewing peoplelike that at Ralph stone's ha.lse and probably other places too. I remember goin:.J to the coop when it was finally formed an:i seein;whatever I could do which usually wasn't lDI.lCh. But I mean txyin;J to encouraqe those people, meet.irg with them when they first came, those people who chose to live in the coop. I remember doin; the flyer for them, a flyer for prospective ~state students, explainin;I cooperative housing am havi.rg it in the mailin;J that went out to thousands of people. Along with a lot of other literature from school, we were invited to include this. I was once also sent on a scam to Washington state, I've tried to parethis sto:cy down as the years go on but it was the end of the fiscal year an:i the university needed to do sane.thin;J with lots of little bits of money that it had in a funi. So they decided to p.rt all the m:mey into travelin;J am take seven people to Bellin;Jham, washi.n:Jton,to look at the housin;J that they had at this little spin-off hippiecollege that was sp..m-off of western Washington state university. 'Ihe thing was that these people, this was a time when-it was 1976--college enrollment was declinin:J, people had to do sanethingwith their facilities so this little oollege in washington had p.rt in ranps arxi railin:Js ani advertised it for old people. 'Ihey got old people to cane and live there and go to school. Ani so you'd have a \\l011'len' s literature class fran the early twentieth century. If you are t.al.Jdn;J about sanet:hi.rg there would be sanel:lody say, "Ch yeah, I remember that." It was a wonierful. experience for a nineteen-year-old college student and it also was a way, a back door aroun:i, the state's idea that San:Ja100I1 state wouldn't have housing, was to fi.rd sane trick. so we were tryin;t to get sane lew-cost loan m:mey out of HUD to build a buildi.rg and have sane of it for older students. It was all a scam. we all flE!W' out there, except I didn't fly out there. They told sane travel agercy in tc:M.n that we each had X aJJX:R.mt of dollars of travel noney. So I went da.m there and I said, "Ib you care where I go?" You lalow, whatever the Travel 1v;Jercy said, "No, we don't care, we just knc:lw you have this nuch." Well I said, ''Well fine then, I don't want to go where they're going. I'11 go to Eugene, 0rega1, I'll go to san Francisco. I'll go see my frierxls in Minneapolis." Ani the only thing was that as lorg as I showed 1JP in Bellin.;fham, Washi.n:Jton on the right day at the right time it didn't make any difference to anybody. So it was my :free trip to the west coast, I've always remembered that. Q: Ard you were there with other mrlversity administrators? A: I was there with Bob Spencer, the President. I was there with Haner Butler, the Dean of SbJdents, Rosie Roach, the Assistant Dean of students, I'm trying to remember who else was on that trip. Q: '!his was before the coop began, this was a prel.llninary visit or t:ll.ie; was • • • A: No, this was after the coop. '!his was another adventure in housirg, yes, the second attempt at housing. I think there were about half a dozen people but I remember :perhaps na:e than anything else was that we all wanted to have a picture of ourselves taken outside the mXe1 we were stayin:J at in Bellin#Jam, wash.in;Jton. We all kirx1 of crowded aroul'd, we didn't all want to be just stan:tiig ani so a couple of people crouched or kneeled or whatever. I remember Bob Spencer climbed up on the top railing of a fence that surrrurr:ied a swimmi.rq pool or sanething. I will always remember looking over at him and saying, "'!hat's the perfect place for you, Bob, sitti.n;J on the fence, I think you should be l,ilotographed." Ard I remember Haner, Rosie and I and probably a couple of other people rentirg a car and taJdnq off for canada to have dinner. All in all it was a scam, I'm sure but lots of fun. So we had done cooperative housing, I don't think it lasted very lorq. 'lhe cooperative housirg at satJ;Janr:n state was another example of sanethlng that eventually didn1t work out. It was pretty wackf to try to do in sane ways, in sane ways it isn't and some ways it ex1sted at lots of mrlversities. But the mrlversity tried, it paid Ernie Faton noney.'lhey gave us money to look for saneone to hire and they hired sanebody. I don•t knc::M, I don't remember now why he left. Ralph stone I'm sure will remember even better than I do. But I don't think it's because t.he¥ made it miserable for him because I think in many ways the univers~ty was supportive. 'lhe mrlversity wanted to get housing, they wanted to be able to say, "You can came here and we'11 tell you where to live." 'lhe university just wanted the worst way to be able to say that. I think A, because they thought they were missin;J sane students because they oouldn•t say that ani B, it made it seem mlre like a real university. 'lhe c::amm.mity was split, I mean the alternative cxmm.mity was split. '1bere was sc:rnethin:J very real ani good about the idea that when you came here to go to school, you cc:uldn't just live in sane donn. You had to live in t:a.m, you had to, you couldn•t escape being a member of the Sprirgfield community in a l;nqer sense ani for the alternative carm.mi.ty that was great. '!here were people in lots of neighborhoods, it was a good idea, we rode on the same buses ani we lived '~.mEr the same conditions ani we weren't apart in any kind of way. 'lhere wasn•t even a ghetto, there was really no student ghetto. People lived all over town ani people lived in virtually every little town aroum here ani out in the country.And I think that was just delightful. so there was cooperativehousing. I think that we were sort of idealistic about the kind of people who woold en:i up livirg in them, we assumed they would all be like us, that they might in fact cane here ani go to school so theyaould live in cooperative housing. In fact they were just sort of regular folks who had enough to do trying to study chemistl:y ani management ani whatever they were studying that they weren•t necessarily primed to be thrilled that they were living in any kind of alternative housing situations subsidized by the university an:i so it never ended up working out that well, of course it doesn't exist now. we can assurre it was not a smash.i.n;J success. Q: What about the alternative oamm.mity, quote unquote. Was that a large group of people? A: What it was was an intense group of people. I •ve never seen anything like it. I •ve lived in several places an:i I've never seen anything quite like it. sane places like Madison, wisconsin which really I think if you look at it is a~OCII'ItiUility and it seems like a good place to live. But see~started happening so early and in the begilmi.n;J the difference (was] between what was ri~t an1 what was w:ron;J. What was w:ron;J was a :reconi store what was right was a reooni stare with a plant in it and that's all you had to do. Well the advantage of being a late bloaner as Sprilgfield was is that you weren't goin;J just to get heavily into hip-capitalism. '!here wasn't just a rush to have the store with posters. we oou1d start cooperative, start truly alternative rusiness as it was a D'Ore scphisticated time for alternative cammmity in general. so that was an advantage, all of the available oonsumer goods stores that might do what we might do in cost weren't already taken up with the capitalist,that was good. As many of us came fran the university an:1 we just went at the oc:mnunity with a ven:reance. we had all of this knowledge, or at least thought we did ani all this energy and all this theory an:1 we were just dyin;J to nake it real on the streets. And we had great faith that it waJld all work because we had read it in books an:1 itworke:i. It looked good on paper. so we had just had boun;fiess energy. I used to go to meet~ just about every night of the week. can remember goirg to two or three meetin;;rs in an evening. We were always plannin;J sanethirg or in the middle of sanethirg else an:1 tryirg to save somethirg else an:1 wonderirg about this an:1 it was a very intense intiJnate group of people. '!he same group of people believed that for this to be right ycu 'WOJ.ld also be perscnllly very intertwined too, sleep with a lot of people. You'd be best frien:is and you would stay at whoever's house you happened to be at. I slept in lots of places. You knc:JrA ycu go and have a meetirY:J and if it was over and you were til::a.:l, eve:cybody WOill.d just fall out on the rug. It was a c,;:raJP of people that had a pure idea of what the ultimate CXJ'II!'AD'lity WOill.d be like and they just 1'lli!.'t.rChed about t:t:yirY:J to make that l'lal:Pen· It was sa.nat.hin;J where business and school and personal life were just al:most in:iistingu.ishably intertwined. Q: What about specifics, in tenns of projects, organizations, I mean just the names of the t.hin;Js you can remember who were at meeti:rg seven nights a week, what were all those meeti:rg about? A: lblld I do it? Q: Yes. A: 'Ihe:re was the Sprin;Jfield l?ad:io COoperative. Q: Sprin;Jfield l?ad:io COoperative? A: Which I don't think ever had an ai.xwave alth.ollgh it had sane money at one time Which I think disappeared into the c:xxsnv.::~S. Q: Where did the money caae from? A: ll:lnations. 'lhe idea was to t:ey to get a little bit of :money together so we CXJUld get sate equipnent and begin to research how" you got grant and dada dada and license, etc. I remember that. At sa.nt;;Jam::m state of course there was the Program o:mnittee Work CUltural Society that was a meetirY:J that took place and -we tried to do thirY:Js here too whether it was sa.nethin;J in specifics like t:t:yirY:J to save Ron Et:tirqer's hide or whether it was t:t:yirY:J to con:vinoe the library that shovels were tools too and you should be able to [get them] the check out desk. If they were goirY:J to call it a leamin;J rescurces center then they'd better have sane shcwels back there to hard out too. Q: Arxi there was a CX1111Dittee f0l"l11Gd arourxl that too? A: Ch, I'm SUJ::e there was a c:x:mnittee, there was a camnittee for evecyth.ing. we leamed t:m:eaucra.tic-I noticed that in state capitols and especia] ly washirgton D.C. I people get lliOl.'e bureaucratic. see if they are t:t:yirY:J to m:ganize garbage pickup or old clothes or whatever they get lliOl.'e organized about it. I think that we did here too and I was just tellitg saneone this very ra:art:ly that one time we were pissed off about saoathir.q, a bunch of us. we were sit.tirg over at David I.asley's house on 18th street. we wrote a letter prot:estirq sanet.hinq or ather and signed it the 11a::ramittee of Q:moerned students." Now we could have signed it "a bunch of hippies" but -we didn't, -we knew. Two years later Bob Spencer 'WDJ.ld caae up to me when there was an issue at han:i. He'd say, "Well, what does the o:mnittee of Conoerned students think about this?", how you gain leg'itimacy dealitg with a bureaucracy. '!here was let's see, Spoon River was an 4th st:reet and then it liXWed around the c::x:n:ner to MaDs. I was t:tyin;; to :r:::euanber this woman•s name earlier, here name was susan, well her last name ~me l'lOW' but she was a Sprin;field native and. she and her younger sister began a bakery and they baked whole grain breaCl and. they sold them partly through the coop and partly sane place else. 'lllere was the Energy center, perhaps one of the most ana.rdlistic free form things. It was a buildin:J that I think had been rented as the McGoVern hea.dquarters ani after that campaign was over in 1972 why a bmc::h of hi~ies decided to keep it, rent was cheap, the owner was synpathetic I guess ani so it was sort of held an to. It's not defi:na):)le, it's what I read about Squeaky Wheel, although I don•t renenf:)er Squeaky Wheel, and it was in the same buildi:rg. But it was just a free form, the door was open if sanebody with the key was there or saoebody forqot to lock it ani there would l:le coffee and you oculd sleep there. sanetimes there 'WOUld be l\1.1Sic and saaetimes there would be JDOV'ies and sanet~ there would be ~but just an energy center, very well mana.qed. Gosh what else was go:Jn;J an? At san;atrcn state there was a magazine class, prd:)ably called ~ines, ~Martinwas the wanan who taught it. And. when we were do:Jn;J hare sb:Jdies they did a magazine one year an the hare-studypmject. c:reati.rq a magazine entitled 'lhe Twentieth century Homestead AXmc:t.lair Reader. Q: Yes, I think that's in the Archives. A: ell, I'm sure it is in the Archives. Somewhere there exists or does not exist except in :memoey, a very kin:i letter from an alternative book distributor in which he very sheepishly said that he was very sorry he oculd not take on our publication as part of his distribution package. He oculd not offer it because it was too biq in size, too tall and too wide. It didn't fit on the shelves and. he was very sad to have to admit that this was true, that we had produced a fine but wrong-sized product. Q: How about backirg up to the more official side of your duties? What about your year as a student Regent? A: My year as a Sb.:r::lent Regent, I don't have a lot of memories about it. I don't think it was very exciti.rg. I think like same other thi.rgs I've probably done, I ran for it and I was elected. and. it was just the very fact that that 'WOUld happen ani I 'Wall.d appear an the Boan:1 of Regent was partly that was the political statement. How II1UC'h could be done after that was OJ(EI1 to questian. I couldn't vote. A lot of what was done was done m the bar the night before the meeti.rg or an the phone, or at sane other violatian of the Illinois p.lblicmeetin;Js act. well I 'WOUldn't do that. I 'Wtlllldn't go to the bar. I w:::JUJ.dn't show' up early, I wouldn't be invited to nor att:er.d the little private caucuses. I took the position an the boani, I sat there through the meetin;Js l:Jut in a lot of ways I was never, I don't think, informed of what ·was goi.rg on. Now I used to read diliqently. I would read the sctlool papers fran each of the three mrl.versities. I would read everyth:i.nq that the staff and the Board of Regents would sen:i cut but I never felt included. I never felt in solidarity with I ' Douglas Kamholz 32 the other students. '!hey were much nme moderate. I would say things occasionally. '!here were no great overarchi:ng issues, other than the continued existence of Ban:jana1 state ani the continued existence at its helm of Bc:i;) Spencer that were in the air very much ani even then only subtly on the time that I was on the Board. see, I had made an appearance before the Board before I was on the Board. An official appearan::e., I'd made sane protest appearances too when they were axinq programs. Q: ~!hat was the JSO? A: JSO ani I think sanetllirg else too. I had made sane boisterous appearances in a crowd ani I also had been on the docket to speakonce. '!hey were goin;J to cut the budget five percent or I knc::M what they were doin;J, they were creatin;J a contirgency pzogram in case theyfaced a five percent budqet cut which seemed like a probability. Q: 'lhe Board was? A: 'lhe Board was creatirg a policy, like all institutions, but specifically Ban;rcmDn state, if it were cut by five percent. '!hey were figurin;J rut and I think they eventually did figure rut sane planby which they would cut this person here and this person here. I came in and. said, "I don't Ul'lderstarD this." 'lhis was an official, prearran:;Jed hearin:;J and there was tiine for interested people to speak.I came and I said I didn't umerstan:i it. I thought that if the bu.dget got cut five percent that evezybody would just get five percent less m:mey ani nobody would get fired. Ani that seemed like the m::st logical t:h.irg in the world to me. '!hen I went on to say that I assunEd that the reasons against this are kirDs of hierarchy and status and da da da da about heM the system works ani haw such a sinple solution as mine is not a sinple solution because of the various egos that are involved in an essentially male, white hierarchy, a bureaucrat hierarchy. well I really offered it as a l~itiJnate thin:J and it offered an CJR?C)rb.mity to say some politicalthings but it just seemed so logical to me that eveeybody would just take hane five percent less. Well they acx::used me of usin:;J it all asjust a political statement I remember. I remember the Olairman of the Board of Regents, who was still the Chainnan when I became a member. Q: '!hat was Matsler? A: Barr, Bob Barr. Matsler was the Executive Director. He was the paid executive. Bal:r was the man a:ppointed by the Govemor ani then elected OlaiJ:man of the Board. So I said this by way of sayin;J that if there was really any political worth to my bein;J an the Board it was that I was there and 1:hirgs that I did subsequent to that, there just wasn't that :much to do. '!hey wculd talk about Northam Illinois needs 1t¥)l:'e square feet in the library to meet the code for the graduate requirements for X and X professional society ani there weren't great issues. It was a time of tightenin:J budgets ani a timewhen sane of the mre :r;ililosopti.cal questions were put aside. '!here was no great tunnoil here really that got carried into the board room. I think that as much as people may not have liked Bob Spencer theyweren't really interested in takin;J that fight constantly, acrilooniously into the Board of Regents. '!hey knew, even the peoplewho were against Spencer wanted to oust hlln, also, knew you didn't want to create a picture of i.nccatpatenoe and 'b.n:moil at the l.U'liversity. Because the Board of Reqents, there have always been and assune there are l1CM nmors of this institution that it is about to became an ann of the university of Illinois or southem Illinois university, a very ~zitive institution in carJ::x:>male which has branches in Springf1eld, Eklwardsville and eveeywhere else across the southern half of the state. Now that has been a constant nmDr here that we were on the vm:ge of loosin:.J our a.ut.on::mw. So even people who -were against Spencer weren't always brin:.Jin:.J that fact to the Board of Regents. I remember, not about what, but I remember facin:.J off squarely against Olarlie Slruman who was the once president of the National FaJ:m aJreau who was the resident right-wirqer on the Board and I was the resident left-wirger. I don't krlow What it was that we faced off about but I remember a year or so after I was on the Board I ran into saneone fran Northam university who said that st:ments remember that Cllarlie and I were the two honest ones and everyone else was a slippery fish. Like I said I think after sittin:J on the Board I think the m'JSt political t.hin3' I might have done was that when Barr retixed as the President of the Board, they went arourd and everyonehad to vote. You always ask the student what their vote was and even wrote it dc7tm, it just didn't count. Everyone had to vote yea or nay on givin:.J Bob Barr a plaque or sanet:hi.n:J or other and of oourse this was an opportunity for everyone to say what they thought. I think maybe I mark it as sane point in rrq own political maturation that when it came arcuni to me I did not vote no and stand up and say that he was sleazy or anyt:hirq like that. EveJ:yone else said, "! vote yes,and I'd like to take this owortunity to da da da da, II and when it came to me I said, "I vote yes." 'lhen it went on to the next person so it was obvious what rrq feelin;s were but I didn't have to make a loud statement at an ~iatetime to have that said. AM it goes down he unanim::usly received this t:h.irg, so it doesn•t rain on his parade and who was he anyway. so the Board while it had-it seemed like it was goin:.J to be excitin;J, never really tw:ned out to be all that interesting of a position. I remember there was a leftist rrursing instructor at Northern Illinois university plblished a book while I was on the Board and I do remember brin:.Jirq that up at a Boani ~. I'd seen her sanewhere and seen her i.nt:aviErl.lei sanewhere and thought she was very good and used the form of sayin3' to the President of Northem Illinois university who at that time was in a lot of trouble-! think he had gotten drunk and hit sanebody and taken his car and had it repaired and painted. I hope it was him and not someone else. But arryway he was in no mood to be dealin:.J with the subtleties of the nursin:.J profession at that particular nanent. But I said, ''Well, 'f'J.CN, President, whatever your name is, I find here recently that a fine member of your faculty has done~verynoteworthy and I would hope it is within the preview of the Board of Regents to take note, make note and da da da da about this fine achievement." Q: Did it get in the minutes? A: Oh sure, it's in the minutes, it's in the record I'm sure. I didn't know what to do with that position. I think there's m:>re to do than I did. Also, it's obvious fran sane of what we've been sayirg here that there were times when I was a bJsy fellow doirg more than one person should do. I've never had a good idea how m.1Ch I can do ani what my capacity is ani at what po:int there begins to be diminishi.n:J retums. I've never been able to grasp finnly for that. So I was doin;J more than I could do. Now really if one were dedicated, one could beccme a member of the Boal:d of Reqents ani then you could spend a lot of tiJne da.m there in their offices in Springfield. You could figure out who gets the contracts ani you cou1d figure out all kin:1s of things. I'm sure it's all there. A good reporter could do it ani a good student B:lR member has the access to the material. But I was neither of those. Q: You did have access to their files though? A: I'm sure I did, yes, I'm sure that no one ever tried to use them ani that the other student members were h1.n'xh'eds of miles away or sixty miles away ani I should have been there. If I was goirg to do that I should have realized that I had magic access, I should have spent a lot of tine da.m there but I didn't. I used to just tJ:y to be, in whatever thi.n:Js I said, I tried to ergage in the normal business of the Boal:d, too. And I tried to have sanet:hi.rg intelligent to say about sane1:h.irg or other at every meetir:g so that they would realize that I had a true interest ani I did have a true interest in ~education administration. I 'Wall.d research carefully, what I sa.1d before I said it ani tried to be a good contributin:J member of the Boal:d. But it was always kind of crazy, I guess there was sane1:h.irg in my own motivation like the motivation to live in a fann on a road that evecybody drives by ani have it look real nice in the front yani ani have your fences up ani your stock looked healthy ani the house painted. so you do provide a model ani sometimes a shockingeducational mode1 to people who haven't experienced saneone from the altemative community or a radical person in that kind of situation. I could come there ani I could sbJdy ani c:cmpreh.erd the issues of library certification for Northern Illinois university Graduate School. Errl of Side one, Tape 'IWo Q: Is there m::>re? Have I missed thirgs, issues, events, personalities1 ideas1 concepts? A: I dcm't think. I haven't done this but it is important to ccmm.micate the \\lOn:ier of 5an;Jaioon state. People came here. Like the things that to m were obvious of course any other way would be stupidto sane people were big deals. Just to put our chairs in a circle, nt:M there are sane people who went through years ani years of school ani they never saw anything but the back of sanebody else's head and the teacher's face. An::l here was this virtually dem:lcratic circle. 'Ihe teacher was not distinguished from the students and that may have been as important and liberatirg a thin:J for some people who had cctne here as anything else. An::l it was done ani done regularly, done normally. I had a class with a professor who's no lager here named John Nolte. John Nolte used to have a habit I guess, he did it in the class that I took am I think I remember him sayirg that he did it quite often. 'Ihe first night of class he took everybody's picture. 'Ihe nightclass, a goc:d mix of people, business people, people 'fran the state, and student types. He took ·a picture of everyone the first night am took a picture of the last night or the next to the last night so he could bri.n:J them the last night. By the en:i of the semester clothes were more casual, the men•s ties were gone, the men1s sideburns were creepin;;J dc:1.m the sides, the hair was creepirg down their neck a little bit. '!here was just a general liberat.irg influence that partly was the times but it was enhanced by atten:mnce at this university and I think that it did a lot of people a lot of goc:d. I think it did me a lot of good. I don't 1alc:w if I needed to became more liberal but it made you feel that there were possibilities that were alive and still alive am that the fine thin;Js am enctianal t.h..in;Js and subtle thi.n;Js could becane more a part of JlK)re of the aspects of your life, that youcould take sane kin:i of human un:ierstan:ii.r into the work place, that you could take sane kin:i of new view of gen:iers into your hane. 'Ihese were worXlerfu1. thin:Js that the institution as a whole stood up for and represented and enaouraged in the student body ani through the faculty. My general impression is one of a veey positive experiencefor myself and t:housai'rls of other people who pass through. In sane ways, although I've never said it this way before, but in some ways it might be a little bit cx:rrparable. I went to college the first time at Blackbum COllege, a small Liberal Arts School down the road in carlinville, Illinois where everyone "WOrks. EveJ:y student there works ani students do everythin;J but teach and administer. '!hey fix the fcxxi, they build the buildi.rJjs1 they do it. When I was there we built the Library ani we hired two people1 a master builder ani a crewchief an:i then a dumb bunch of college kids. we did wirirg1bricklayirg and cement ani cazpentey and it was amazi.n:]. But because it was small ani sanewhat because the way it was, it gave you four more years of not sul:mittin;J to beirq a number in the society, four more years to get a greater grasp on yourself as an irrlividual, as a distinct irrli.vidual, as saueone who should be recognized ani a lot of what went on at ~state was the same way. It encouraged you to remain distinct fran others in a good way and not to succumb tosc:.met:hin:J mass and oveJ:p:JWeri.n:j. I have always applauded the effort. '!hatIS goc:d. Q: Okay, thank you. En:1 of side '!Wo, Tape 'IWo
|Title||Kamholz, Douglas - Interview and Memoir|
Colleges and Universities
Sangamon State University, Springfield (Ill.) (1969-1995)
|Description||Kamholz, Sangamon State University student in the 1970's, recalls his experiences at the university and his work on the Tenure Decision Committee. He discusses many of the faculty members, President Robert Spencer, SSU's non-traditional environment and curriculum, the Public Affairs Reporting Program, the Twentieth Century Homesteading Project, Spoon River Book Co-op and other cooperatives in the Springfield area, SSU's early housing efforts, and student membership on the Board of Regents.|
|Creator||Kamholz, Douglas b. 1947|
|Contributing Institution||Oral History Collection, Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield|
|Contributors||Hunt, Nancy [interviewer]|
|Digital Format||PDF; MP3|
|Rights||© Board of Trustees of the University of Illinois. For permission to reproduce, distribute, or otherwise use this material, please contact: Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield, One University Plaza, MS BRK 140, Springfield IL 62703-5407. Phone: (217) 206-6520. http://library.uis.edu/archives/index.html|
|Title||Douglas Kamholz Memoir|
|Source||Douglas Kamholz Memoir.pdf|
|Rights||© Board of Trustees of the University of Illinois. For permission to reproduce, distribute, or otherwise use this material, please contact: Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield, One University Plaza, MS BRK 140, Springfield IL 62703-5407. Phone: (217) 206-6520. http://library.uis.edu/archives/index.html|
University of Illinois at Springfield
Norris L Brookens Library
Douglas Kamholz Memoir
K128. Kamholz, Douglas b. 1947 Interview and memoir 2 tapes, 140 mins., 38 pp.
Kamholz, Sangamon State University student in the 1970's, recalls his experiences at the university and his work on the Tenure Decision Committee. He discusses many of the faculty members, President Robert Spencer, SSU's nontraditional environment and curriculum, the Public Affairs Reporting Program, the Twentieth Century Homesteading Project, Spoon River Book Co-op and other cooperatives in the Springfield area, SSU's early housing efforts, and student membership on the Board of Regents.
Interview by Nancy Hunt, 1982 OPEN See collateral file: interviewer's notes and copy of an address delivered at SSU's 1980 graduation celebration by Kamholz.
Archives/Special Collections LIB 144
University of Illinois at Springfield
One University Plaza, MS BRK 140
Springfield IL 62703-5407
© 1982, University of Illinois Board of Trustees
'!his manuscript is the product of a series of tape-recordscl interviews or.::n:iucted by Nancy hunt for the Oral Hi.stoey Office, S8lvJamon state university on september 7, l982. Margaret Reeder transcribed the tapes ani ¥ay Johansen edited the transcripts.