Lena Dougherty Memoir
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University of Illinois at Springfield Norris L Brookens Library Archives/Special Collections Lena Dougherty Memoir D744. Dougherty, Lena b. 1903 Interview and memoir 1 tape, 90 mins., 33 pp. ILLINOIS COAL: THE LEGACY OF AN INDUSTRIAL SOCIETY Lena Dougherty, daughter of an Italian immigrant coal miner and wife of a Southern Illinois coal miner, recalls her family background and childhood near Auburn, Illinois: education, immigrant neighborhood, and marriage. She discusses the problems between the PMA and UMW, the effect on the residents of Tovey, problems faced by the families of miners, violence between unions, the Mulkeytown march, role of the Catholic Church in Kincaid during the dispute, and her husband's work in the mines. She also briefly discusses Mr. Dougherty's death by black lung disease and the benefits provided by the union. Interview by Kevin Corley, 1986 OPEN See collateral file: interviewer's notes, photocopy of Lena Dougherty's family history, photocopy of Dougherty's journal. Archives/Special Collections LIB 144 University of Illinois at Springfield One University Plaza, MS BRK 140 Springfield IL 62703-5407 © 1986 University of Illinois Board of Trustees Preface 'lhi.s manuscript is the product of a tape recorded :interview conducted by Kev:in Corley on the history of coal mining :in southern Illinois. 1he project YBS sponsored by the Illinois State Historical Society arrl funded in part by the Illinois Humanities Council and the National Endo'Wlrent for the lilmani.ties. Mditional support cane fran the Oral History Office of Sangam:m State University. Elsebeth Buckley transcribed the tapes and SUsan Jones edited the transcript. Angeline Marie ''Lena" Doughterty grew up :in Auburn, Illinois. Her husband ~a miner during the Mine Wars of the 1930's. In this rn.em:>ir Mrs. Doughtery discusses the problems she arrl her family faced during the mine wars arrl the violence that occurred. She also discusses her parents and her children. Readers of the oral history maooir should bear :in mirrl that it is a transcript of the spoken "W:>rd, ani that the interviewar, narrator and editor sought to preserve the infonna.l, conversational style that is inherent in such historical sources. Sangannn State University an:l the Illinois State Historical Library are not responsible for the factual accuracy of the meo:oir, nor for views expressed therein; these are for the realer to judge. Th.e manuscript may be read, quoted an:l cited freely. It may not be reproduced :in whole or :in part by any IIEBilS, electronic or rrechanical, without permission :in writing fran the Oral History Office, Sanganon State University, Springfield, Illinois, 62708. Lena Dougherty, Bulpitt, Illinois, July 31, 1986. Kevin Corley, Interviewar. Q: Mrs. Ik>ugherty, w:ruld you please state your full name? A: Angeline Dougherty. Q: W:lat 's your middle name? A: Marie. Q: Angeline Marie Dougherty. Vby do you go by lena? A: Since I have been a child they have always called rre Lena. They took the en:i off of Angeline and just called rre Lena. Q: Okay, now your first nanE, how is it spelled? Angeline? A: A-N-G-E-L-I-N-E. Q: Wlat vas the ti.ne of your birth? A: October 10, 1903. Q: Arx:l where were you bom? A: In South Wilmington, Illinois. Q: South Wilmington. How long did you live there in South Wilmington? A: Well, until 1920, so I was not quite seventeen. Q: Now what did your father do for a living? A: He 'WaS a miner . Q: Wlat mines did he work in? A: 'Ihe coal mines up north rJll.ch are very low, the coal was very low in those mines. That's where Dad Yl:>rke:l arrl my older brothers Yl:>rked in the mines. Q: IX> you know the names of those mines? A: No, I don't have any idea. Q: How many brothers and sisters do you have? A: I have nine brothers and sisters. Q: Ch, my gooiness. A: 'lhat's a big family. 'Ihere was five girls and five boys. Q: were you in the middle, the first or the last? A: I was the sixth. Q: Vllen you ~re growing up you say your brothers ~nt to \<lUrk in the mine also? A: Yes, all of my brothers. Q: All of them. A: Except Tom. Q: Did your father or brothers ever tell you stories about VDrking in the mine? A: Yes, that's all they ever talked about was the mines. My husband, his folks had always \<lUrked in the mines, that's all ~ e~er heard. Q: Yes. What type of things did they tell you? Did they tell you about the relationship bet~en the ~rkers and themselves? How did that go? A: well, I don't know ~t you are trying to ask, they ~re always happy, you know ~t I rrean? It isn't like now Ybere they make the big mmeies. In these days ~ ~re poor but ~ ~re satisfied. Q: Did they enjoy their ~rk? A: Yes, oh, yes, It wasn't a picnic. (laughter) Any of the miners, they ~re always happy, I will say that. Q: Did they get along ~11 with the management? A: Oh, yes. I never did bear any trouble that way. Q: Vllen did your father start ~rking in the mines, do you know how old he was? A: W:len be came fran the old cotm.try. He was a young man ¥ben be came fran the old cotm.try, I 'iliOUld imagine. I don't have any of that data but I imagine be was in his early ~ties. And at that time though, there was a little mine in Clark City. I don't know if anybody has told you this, there were all little mines. My dad had w::>rked at first in Clark City and then they IIDVed to South Wilmington. Past that he was always in South Wilmington until 'i.E IIDVed to Autum. 3lena Dougherty Q: Vl1en did you IOOV'e to Aubum? A: In 1920. Q: In 1920 that's vhen you IOOV'ed. All right, vba.t country was your father fran? A: Vbat part of Italy? Q: Yes, vba.t part of Italy? A: Torino, it's the Province of Torino. Q: Did be ever tell you nuch about that area, vba.t it was like? A: \e neV"er heard too nuch fran my dad, my toother used to talk a lot about the old country. I wish 'iiiE \'IJO\lld have aske:i toore questions because my man and dad didn't both come fran the same town. My toother was from San Colanbano, my dad was from Busano but they ~re both in the Province of Torino. That's just like our county, I imagine. 'Ihey have all these little toWlS and then they have their Province of Torino. My toother used to talk oore al:xrut her childhood but my dad never did. Although my dad ~t back to the old country ~nRuthy was little, I w:mld say about 1930. His toother and dad was still living and he 'ii~Ent back for a visit but he neV"er did talk about the old country. My toother userl to but he didn't. Q: \-bat type of camunity was it? Was it a farming camnm.ity ....tlere they lived? A: It was trountainous and how they lived, by the way l1Jm used to tell it, they 'li!Ullld have goats, a cow ani chickens. Her brothers '~i!UUld hire out men they 'ii~Ere older. My toother was ten years old, \\hen she was doing laurrlry, baking bread, knitting ani everything already. So, the brothers w:mld bring the goats or Yhatever they had up into the toountains where the greenery was. My trother talked trore about the old country than What my dad did but my mom came here Yhen she was fourteen. Q: What type of things did your trother tell you about the old country? A: Her da:i was a stone mason. He contracted J.Xl.eurrDnia when she was a little girl ani her dad died ~she was very young. Q: Vllat was her full name? A: Her name ws Angeline, like mine but Vacca, V-A-C-C-A. Q: Was that her maiden nanE? A: 'Ihat was her maiden name. Q: Vbat was your father's full name? 4 A: Ikmlini.ck, Ibm:inick Perardi. Q: Okay. A: Ikmi..nick Perardi. Vba.t has all this got to do with the mine trouble? (laughs) Q: Wa get to know a lot about the backgrounds of the miners A: Oh, I see yes. VJhen I was a child all the superintendents V\2re all mre English, Scotch, Irish. I can't reo:anber an Italian name being a superintendent. The lo~ class had high respect for than, nen that TNere alxNe than. Q: That's interesting. A: I know I can remember the Fergusons and the different names, they were well thought of. Q: So a lot of the F.nglisb:nen became the leaders in management and unions. A: That is right. Q: Did the Italians that came aver, did they relate TNell with them, did they get along well? A: Ch, yes. There was no feeling of superiority. Q: Were they able to speak English very well? A: Ch, yes. Q: Your father was ani brothers \oben they came? A: Yes. Q: 'Ihat's interesting. All right so let's II](JIJ'e on then you said you DDVed to AubJrn in 1920? A: Yes. Q: N:>w is that Mt. Auburn aver here? A: No, no, no, this is Auburn. Autum, Illinois, sixteen miles fran here. Q: Okay, and you TNere about seventeen years old then? A: Yes, yes, I was seventeen in Cktober. Q: Tell ne a little bit about your schooling, how long did you go to school? Lena Dougherty A: Eight years. 'lhat was it. Q: What grade did you canplete? A: The eight. Vllen I was in South Wilmington, the high school I WJuld have gone to was tWJ or three miles away, in Gardner, Illinois. You walked it, there were no buses, like there is now. Q: Oh, gee. A: My folks were too poor, they couldn't afford to send us. That's my schooling, eighth grade. .&.lt you know in eight years of school in those days was just like you had been to high school a couple of years. ve had cube root, square root ani another thing wa were taught how to paper, how many rolls of paper WJuld take to paper a roan, how much plaster it would take to plaster a roan, an:l wa were on the top all along. Q: 'lhey taught you that in school? A: Yes, they taught that in their school and 'We ~re also taught manners. Q: Oh, I an sure. (laughter) A: Grade school at that time was equivalent to tw:> years of high school on top of that, I ~d say. Q: Yes, b:Jw did they teach you manners? A: Canpouni interest, wa learne::l all of that in our eight years. The school I TNent to, was just t:w:> roans . There was four grades in each roan. Consequently, when yoo ware in the fourth grade you 'Were hearing ~t WiS going on in the eighth grale so you were that nuch ahead. Q: Yes. A: .tbw it's totally different. Q: How did they teach you manners in the school? How did they go about that? Vbat type of discipline did they have? A: I liked our teachers. I had the same teacher in fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth grcrle, Mr. Lish taught us a lot. One thing he taught us about singing. .tbw, I don't know "\ohether ld.ds do or not but each class hal fifteen minutes. Your arit'llletic was fifteen nrlnutes then your gramnar was fifteen minutes, your geography, or history. But the first fifteen mirutes that was either for writing, ~use:i the PaliiEr method, writing or reading. ve have to read or sing, so we learne::l all the old songs. It was great, he was a good teacher. Q: \-bat method did he use to discipline the students? A: He didn't have to, he didn't have to. There were no bathroans, but if you wante:i to leave the roan all you hal to do was raise your hand and you got the ncxi. You ~t out but you just ~nt out and you CariE back in, I nean there was no horsing around.. It is just like our parents, they didn't have to beat us. They knew and wa knew, ~t was expecte:i of us and that's what ~did. So that's how it was at school, no problems like now, that's what they say, I don't know. (laughter) Q: I an a teacher I can confirm it. I know. A: Yes, yes. Q: lbw about your bane life, What was your relationship with your parents? A: Oh, great. ve ~re all satisfied, now they are bore:i. I get letters fran my grandchildren, they are aver in Brussels, they are bore:i. 'nley have everything in the ~rld' rut they are bore:i. ve ~re never bored. Q: \>by? What type of things did you do? A: The girls, \le used to play jacks, jump the rope, the boys used to play soccer. I forget what our teacher use:i to play with us. Then at recess tine \le played gBI~Es. We learned how to crochet and tat 'When lNe were eight or ten years old and knit. So we always had s~thing to do. Now they have to have Wheels. On' life w:lB a lot different than what they are nbw. · Q: Vbat type of chores did you have to do around. the house? A: l-e did anything. Of course the dishes, the kitchen floor was s~pt three tfl:IEs a day, after breakfast, after lunch and of course we called dinner supper. (laughter) l-e helped our nnther, wash clothes. Of coorse, you washed on the board , we didn1t have a washing machine. We took care of the kids that ~re younger than us. My oldest sister was ten years old, men I was hom, she could wash clothes or cook a meal at that t~ and she was only ten years old. Q: I:bw was the washing done in the house, did you all pitch in to do it? A: I will tell you, that was a funny thing. We didn1t have clothes like they have now. You have heard this before, that story, you had tw:::> dresses for a v.eek day and then lilJUld have one for Surrlay, right? (laughter) You didn't have any clothes closets. 'nlis house had no clothes closets. Now what lilJUld they do without clothes closets? (laughter) But we had twJ dresses for everyday. You washed one and you ~re the other. Q: 'lbat is interesting, tell me nnre a'OOut that. A: M::>re, (laughs) that1 s about it. Q: About your early childhocrl, remembrances and things? A: I don't know ~t to tell you about, if you just want to read my little book up there that I have, I wrote of my childhocxi. Q: Tell me, men did you first start being interested in poetry? A: Oh, I didn't write poems. Q: You didn't? A: No, I have gathered poems. Q: Vbere did you get them, did you just get them fran different places? A: Yes, I gathered poems. But no, no, I didn't write them. I VlJUld write little poems for the kids, you know ~t I mean, for birtl'days etc. Q: How long have you been gathering poems? A: Since 1924. Q: Is that about the time you got married? A: Before, the year before ve got married. Because they are dated in there, the different little poems, I tried to date it... Q: Now you vere married in 1925, \\here ¥Jere you living then? A: In Auburn. Then .Bullo got w:>rk in TOV'ey, so '£ II'DV'ed to TCNey. Q: Vba.t was your lrusband 's full name? A: Andrew J. Ik>ugherty, now that will be in the book. Q: Okay. A: You will have that here, that's all there in the book. Q: It's good to get it on the oral record too, so its on this thing here Q: Oh, I see, yes. Q: V!lat was his middle name? A: Andrew John, I believe, lut just Andrew J. But I believe it was John, I VlJUld say Jolm. Q: lbw long had you gone together before you got married? A: How long did I know him before wa got married? Q: Yes. A: I would say a couple of years , a couple of years. Q: Tell me now, 'ifttat type of courtship did you go through? Vha.t type of things did you do? A: Vben I was single? Q: Yes, yes. A: WJen I was a child, I am going to say a child of t~lve or fourteen years old, the girls ~ld go to Father Ibna, a priest, ani tell him that v.~e ~ld be interested in w:>rking on farms. So the farmers w:>uld cane into Father Ibna ani ask ~ther there ~e any girls for the Sl.liiiiEr aV"ailable to w:>rk on the farms. There were four or five of us near South Wilmington but South Wilmington was divided into tv.n parts, the south side ar¥:1 the north side. \E had the br.lo schools. Q: I see. A: So the south side kids didn't mess with the north side kids ani visa versa. On the south side there was five or six of we Catholic girls. One farmer w::ruld cane in ani he -w:>uld say he had places for maybe five or six girls. Then ~ w::ruld go with him ani he w::ruld take us to all these different farms. We w:>rked for a dollar and a half a week so you got your board. But it was so furmy because I was always thin. Vben the woman w::ruld look at me she W>Uld say, ''Oh, I don't know if you will be able to handle this w:>rk that we have." Arrl then, "No, I can handle it," you know. So they all tried to fatten ne up. 'lhey w::ruld have me drink crean ani. eat cake. 'lhey never got the job done. (laughter) But we worked for a dollar and a half a week. 1hen when I got to be fourteen, fifteen years old I went to Dwight if you are interested it is all in the book. Q: Okay, go ahead that is fine. A: W:len I was fourteen and fifteen years old I got w:>rk in Dwight, Illinois, which is about eight or ten miles fran South Wilmington. 'lb.is was housew:>rk. N:>w this was five dollars a week, that was gocxi. I don't know \<by I quit. I think I used to get hooesick, I wanted to go hate, you know, after a nnnth or two or three. I don't know how long I worked in Dwight. 'lben I went 011er to Marselles ani w:>rked washing dishes in a hotel. 'Ihere again I got five dollars a week. So then they started up a cigar factory back in South Wilmington. We always v.urked. I v.urked in a cigar factory then until they closed it, I think it 'Na.S about a year. Q: W:la.t did you do with your nnney? A: Gave it to my mother. Oh, yes, £Nery penny went to my roother. Q: Did she handle the nnney for the litlole family? A: She needed it to buy bread with. Ch, yes, we always gave all my nnney to my nnther. Q: Did your father give his rooney to your nnther too? A: Sure, his whole pay. 'Ihey needed it because in those days the miners got what, two or three dollars, I don't think they got two dollars a day. We \'Were raised that way, all the kids did that. You have to raise the 9 fanily, that ~s \\hat the thing w::~.s. Like my older brothers , what tlDneythey made that all ~t hcma to Mxn., they didn't have speniing tlDney.They wanted maybe to go to a show or something and I got a nickle, it was a nickle, you know, rut no that's how v.e v.Jere, raised poor. Q: ~11, tell me about the camunity again. You said that different sides of tow:~. didn't get along too good. W:ly not? A: N:>, not that they didn't get along, you kept to your OTID. Just like here in Kincaid, you know. But see the kids in those days, you didn't go011er to the north side. ~met in church but I mean you played with the kids on the south side an:l the north side kids played with themselves, there~ no friction there. Q: Vbat ~s the distinction, my didn't they do things together? A: You didn't have t~. (laughs) You didn't have time. ~didn't play that tDJCh, you know, no. Q: Are you talking about Aurum now? A: N:>, I am talking about South Wilmington. Q: South Wilmington? A: Ch, yes. lilbum, v.1ell, I was grOWJ. up, ~I was sixteen I was groWl up, I vasn't a child anyroore. Q: How big a canwnity was South Wilmington? A: I imagine SOIIEthing like maybe Kincaid, probably like Kincaid. Q: It ~ld be about t:w.:>-thousan:l maybe? A: Probably. Q: The people in different sides of town, v.ere they also Italians? A: No, it vas a hodge-pcxlge. They was Polish, Lithuanian, French and Italian. I played with mstly Polish girls. And it was always so nice to 100 because tv.n of the girls that I llllent with had, their grandmas W10 had cane wer fran the old country. The grandmas didn't v.nrk. They just sat behini the heating st011e with their rosaries in their hands. ~ called than the Bal:usha. Q: \-bat does that mean? A: Grandma. Q: Grandma. A: That UE.ans grandma. things, how to be good. ~ used to listen, and they ~ld tell us That was the big thing, how to be good. about Q: (laughs) So b:>w ~re you supposed to be good mat did they say? A: We. used to just l011e those old ladies. I never knew my gran:lma because my mther cane 011er W:1en she was fourteen. .< they used to amaze rre vtJ.en ~ vn1ld go CNer an:l the babusha ~ld be sitting behi.rxl the st011e with her rosary . . . Q: fuw did they expect you to be good? "What did they expect fran you? \>llat did they maan, to be good? A: tell, you didn't get :in trouble, you know mat I mean. Of course, I don't know how ~ could have (laughter) there was no way, there was no way you could. .< you couldn't steal , you couldn't say bad ~rds, you bad to be gocxl , that was it. Q: We.re m:>st of the people in your area that you lived in, were they Italian also? A: l'b, we ha:i m:>re Polish people in our neighborhood.. Q: That's interesting. A: Q.lite a few Italians aver on the other side, on the north side. Of course, we ~re all neighbors. But the Italians vvere m:>re on the north side, on our side there was mostly I YX:>Uld say, Polish, Polish mostly, yes, Q: Did your family speak Italian or English? A: My mther always talked Anerican. Q: Cb. A: She narer talked Italian. She came to this country~ she was fourteen years old. She got married ~she was eighteen. Ani my dad and m:>ther talke:l Italian to each other. My older brothers and sisters could talk it or understan:i it. If you can understarxi a language, it is hard to talk it. Just so you can understand W:lat' s being said that's the main thing, that's ~t I always tell my kids. They tell me,11 Vby didn't you talk Italian to us?" So they could have leam.ed it. Andy especially, "M:m, I don't know my you di.dn't teach us Italian." Well, it was easier for rre to talk American. Q: That's interesting. A: fut my mother always talked Aloorican. She had never been to a hospital, my mther had never, she died when she was eighty-six. Ani she had had elwen children. Joseph died \\hen he was t\\U m::mths old, that is all in the book. ~ha:l never been to a hospital, so when she got sick and they had to take her this was, I think she was in the hospital maybe tw:> IIDnths when she died. She wanted to talk Italian, she w::ru.J.dn't talk American. The nurses 1/Duld say to me, because we stayed with her day and night, an:l the rrurses ~ld say to ma, ''Well, tell your m:>ther," "You tell her." I said, "She reads lmerican, she writes American, you tell Lena Dougherty her. She can talk lmerkan." And I said to her, 'Mom, ~y don1t you talk American to than?" "Oh, -well," she said she felt like talking Italian. (laughter) My younger brothers and sisters, do not know how to talk Italian. They don't even understand it. But it is sad. 'Ihe Litlruanian kids here all talk Litlruanian. Little kids, big kids they all talk Litlruanian ani I think that is great to keep your uother tongue. Q: 'lbat is interesting, yes, sure is. A: I think it is just great, ani it w:ruld help the kids now had I talked Italian to than. It v.xmld help them with Latin, it v.xmld help them with French. Just like now, the one that1 s in Brussels she is taking French lessons. I tell her, I said' "Judith Ann,II because men I was there there 't<IBB a bulletin that \'IRS };llt out by the Embassy. There -were scxre. ads :in the bulletin Wl.ere you could learn French at bane. To me, it ~ld be wiser if you ~t into a hcxre. like that and learned French than learning in lessons where you have to learn the verbs and the nouns and the adverbs and all that. I said, "If you learned how to talk it corwersationaly, if it was me that1 s W.t I ~uld do. I would go into a h.cma to learn it. " Q: 'Ihat sounds right. A: But there are little w:>rds that I will say in Italian to the kids like "stop it" or scxre.thing like that ani they will understand what I am saying. But it is hard for me to talk it. I think it is great for a person to have, you know, bilingual or even three or four. Q: W:lat ethnic backgroun:i v.as your lru.sbanl? A: He was Scotch-Irish. Q: Scotch-Irish, right. Vhat k:inl of family was he fran? A: SanE kin::l as vbat I was fran. Q: Mining? A: Yes, all miners, yes, yes. Q: How many children -were in his family? A: There 'Were five of than and one boy had died as a child. There was four and then Willie died, so there was just three left. So 'When 'We 'Were married there "Was only the three of than, tw:> sisters and he. Q: Yes. A: Now, there is only the one sister left of that family. But in our family there is five of us left. Lena Dougherty Q: In the tw.:> years you ¥.Jere dating your lrusband, did you go to the movies or did you go to dances? A: Yes , v.ent to the t:rlJ\Ties . Q: VJhat did you do? I nean before you ~re married? A: <h, before. ve v.Jent to the IIDVies, then~ w:mld stop and have an ice cream, then v.Je liiUUld go ~. He w:>Uld go hem! and I w:>Uld go hom= to be:l. (laughter) That was it. Because ten o'clock that was it, we v.Jere ~• \e were in the door J indOOrS at ten 0 I Clock. \e had a front porch, my mther ~uld knock on the winiow ( she knocks on some w:>od) ten o'clock. (laughter) You couldn't get in trouble, I '11 tell you, in those days. (laughter) Q: How did he propose marriage or did he? A: Ch, yes, oh, yes, he did. It is real furmy, I never did tell this to my kids and I don't want you to p.1t it in the book either. Q: Okay. You don't want it on record? A: I don't want it on record. Q: Okay. A: I know he 'iimlted to be married on the day that his nm1 and dad's anniversary 'Which was the 23rd of April. But outside of that I don't know. I can't aren remember that, I guess it didn't impress re that llllCh. (laughter) Q: W:lat about your v.Jedding, can you describe that to ne? A: A very small ~ding, v.Je didn't have a big v.a:lding. In our Catholic church v.Je have to have the bans announced three Sundays before a marriage. I di.dn't want that because I di.dn't want a big wedding. So my sister and his uncle v.Jere our attendants and we just went to the clrurch and ..ere married. ve ...eren't married at a mass, ...e were just married in the clrurch, that was all. Ib you want to see my v.Jedding picture? Q: Sure. A: Ckay, I will bring it out, not like they are now. Q: How is that? A: Wall, I nean, ...e ..ere satisfied, you know. ve stayed at home and we'd crochet ani knit, w; made home brew, (laughs) baked bread, made noalles, you know. See, the ~rld is all different now. Tilhen you think about it, ¥.e \\ere satisfied, that's the ~le thing in a rrut shell. Where, now the kids , they have the cars, they have the boats and they have this ani beautiful hcmes and everything. Not like my junk here that I have, it is not old enough to be antique and it is too old to be new, so actually it is junk that I have here rut it is home. 13 Q: W:lat Vl:>Uld be a happy life men you ~re younger? A: The way I spent it, like I told you just making a h.one, that was it. Taking care of your ld.ds and you se~ for than and you did for than, ~ ~re satisfied. Q: \obat type of things did you want your children to have as they gotolder? ~t type of life did you want than to lead? A: 'lhey are doing all right, all of than they are great. I have no qualms in any way about the kids. Four of than are married and all have good marriages. My oldest daughter has three grandchildren, my other daughter bas tw:> grandchildren. An:lrew has one and my youngest daughter,v.ho is forty-six, W:lo is in Brussels, she has four daughters. So theyall have good marriages and happy lives. Q: That is interesting. A: I can go to bed at night and thank GJd for all the blessings. Q: All right, then ~you got married did you save up m:.mey before you got married? A: N:> , (laughs) no • (laughter) Like I told you , all the kids in those days gave their nxmey to their folks. My lulsband was the sarre way then, he v:orked in the mine and all his rroney ~nt to his mother. So then she gave him the last pay that he hai, he could have it. Q: I see. A: So that's what "We got married on. Part of that he threw in~theyshivareed us, he threw part of that out. (laughter) So ~ had nothing. Period, period. My mother, of course she hai a hope chest, you know, with the sheets ani the pillow cases and everything. But that was the SlDll total. So ~ oorrowed two lumdred dollars fran my Dad and bought our furniture. After you paid that off then if you could afford sarething else you got rrore and went along then. .th, ~didn1 t have anything straight away. (laughs) Q: ~redid you live? A: AubJrn. Q: W:lat type of house? A: The first house ~IIDVed into? Q: Yes. A: It was a little three roan shack. We only had oo rooms furnished. \e had the kitchen ani the bedroan furnished was all. We didn1 t get any more furniture than that. After Jean "'iS oom l.IE lived in TCJIJ'ey and ~ didn't start buying furniture until l.IE had Ruthy. 'lhat v.uuld have been after ~ ~re married about five years. 'lhen I think \'<E got a living Lena Dougherty rcx:m set but, no, ~ lived poor. But everybody was in the same category so you dido' t feel like you ~re missing out on anything, you really didn't. W:! had good times, ~had good times. Q: Now, Jean was your oldest? A: .Iht W:len you read this you will see, you YDn't have to ask so many questions. Q: Okay, (laughs) because it is in there. All right. let me ask, Yily did you tiDVe to Tavey? A: Because my husbani got YDrk there. Q: \by did he leave the place he was at? A: You maan in Auburn? Q: Yes. A: \oben he first YDrked at Tavey we lived in tw:> roans. .&.lt he got his job in January ard the miners \O.lld be out on strike in April. '!hey almys went out on strike in April, so we -would only be there the three 11Dilths. So there was a family in Tavey that rented us tv.n rooms for our kitchen ani our bedroan. 'lhen \then April cane, ~ went back to Auburn. '!hey Wlre off then, I believe, at that t:i.J.m they were off from April to <.£tober, I am going to say that. I don't know, I may be wrong there because I know that one of the t:i.J.ms he want back in CCtober. Vk ~re then living in Auburn. He YDU!d ride back and forth to ~rk and that winter -was so bad, the roads Wlre so bai he couldn't make it with the car. He had to board for a mnth or tv.n in Tavey and. then we tJX'J'ITed back, tlD\Ted back to Twey again. Vk stayed in Tovey until V2 DDV'ed to Kincaid ani during the mine trouble we tJX'J'ITed to Kincaid. ve hav'e been in this house for fifty years. It will be fifty years in Nollember. Q: All right, and your first child was bom \then? A: In Auhlrn. Q: In Auburn' ani A: And Ruthy ws bom in Tavey, Andy was bom in Tavey, and Billy was bom in Kincaid. Judith -was bom here. Never want to a hospital. Q: was this the first b:ruse you bought then? A: This is it. Q: This is the first bouse you CM'led? A: Yes. Q: 1his is the only house you owned? A: The rest of than we rented. Q: was this a caopany house? A: ~ N:>, no. The people that live next door hwilt in 1914 by sane bachelor ani then I ad om.ed this. 'lhis house think that she bought it fran this bachelor, Mrs. Harm:>n did. Q: Mrs. HarnDn? A: That was her name. \E bought it fran Mrs. Harroon. Fifty years agoani l.E have been here fifty years. Q: W:tat year ~that again? A: 1936. Q: In 1936 you IllJITed into this heme. You said you had lived in Tweyani IIO\Terl to Kincaid during the mine trouble, vba.t year ~that youlOCllled to Kincaid? A: 1934. Q: 1934? A: 1934 was the mine trouble. Q: That's when you mNed to Kincaid? A: 1933, I think it started, 1933. Q: Yes, ani so you were living in Twey nntil 1934? A: Well, 1934 we DDV'ed to Kincaid fran Twey. I don't know if it was 1934 or 1935. We were living in Kincaid when Billy~ born and Billy was bom in 1934. We evidently IOCJ\Ted to Kincaid in 1934. Q: 'lhat w:ruld have been the start of the ntine trouble. A: Yes , we had to IllJITe, l.E couldn' t live in TOV'ey any more. Q: Vby not? A: Well, because we were threatened by the Progressives I Q: Yes. A: We lived behind my sister's store arrl she had four rooms back there. When they first started this store, Wrlch was in 1920, it was a new store, that's a permanent building. I went to ~rk for then. My sister's rume was Mary, and Joe decided that they w:ruld buy a llcma. When theybought the hJme that meant that the four roans behind the store v.nuld be vacant. '!here was tw:> bedroans, a living roan arrl a kitchen. She wanted to know v.nuld we cane and live there. We were living in TOV'ey in a home then, in Paul Carey's house. If we v.ould live back there, there ~mld be no rent and no light bill. Of course, we didn't have water, you had ....vell water . The telephone was in the house part so that means that ....ve didn't have anything, only our groceries, our living, you know. ve ~ld have no rent, no water, no lights to pay, so we m:Ned there, I think in 1930, behinl the store. Then the mine trouble started in, did the mine trouble start in 1932? Q: Yes, April to August was pretty rough. A: 1932, yes, sure .•. Q: After that it started getting a little better. A: Okay, so then they kept telling my brother-in-law that if he didn't get us out of there that they were going to blow his store up. So, anyway we WJUld have to get out of there then, you know. I want to tell you a little story that really did lru.rt me, because the people in Tovey, they v.ere our friends. When this first started I had no idea that sarething ha:l been plamed, that didn't just happen aver night. I looked out the window one day and here was all these ~. they were going to go marching in Benld or something and they were all dressed in white. Th.ey had ...tlite mifonns on and caps on their heads. I said to my sister, ''Mary," I said, "my God, look, there's Mrs. Wilson, there's so and so." We never left hcma, never even went to the grocery store. I said, ''What are they doing?" And she said, '*!'hey are going to march, they are going to the march." To Gillespie or whatever, the Progressive m:Nem:mt was on and I didn't ellen know Ykla.t it was all about. I couldn't belie~~e it. I am going to tell you this. There were no lights in Tavey because the village couldn't afford to pay the lights, there -was no lights. ve were sitting on the porch behin:l the store, my husband and I, and here care all the men. It was dark, there was no m:x>n or anything and they all had clubs. I said, ''What is this?" Arrl he said, "Oh, my God, they were all going dom to the south side errl of town." He said , "I bet they are going to get Duke." Q: llJke I.J.sse? Is his ncme Duke I.J.sse? A: Duke lisse. He was the president of the local. He had gotten a lot of jobs for a lot of men, Duke had , a gocxl guy, a gocxl fellow. And he said, "Oh, my God," he said, "I am going to call dov.n to Duke and tell him he better get in the basement, because they are after him." So, he went to the phone and he called an:l said, ''You better get dow:1 in the basanent because they are all coming down there with clubs." So he said to Bullo, "Well, call the Sheriff." So, we called the Sheriff and he just got that call through in time because they had cut IXlke' s wire, his telephone wire. He'd have never got through. So I said to Mary, "I can't believe this." Like I said, we had to leave then and so I took my kids, I had three kids. The day that I m:wed, y;e were leaving the store and here was all my frierrls with the clubs and the stones, they were going to stone us. If you think that didn't lrurt. I don't know Who w:ruld have been the one that v.uuld have said that no, we can't do it, you know. \E loved them people. I couldn't believe they w:mld do that to us. But my lUlsband stayed because he said he v.uuldn' t go. He said, '"'hey are not going to chase me out." But of course he couldn't stay behirrl the store. But another incident that I ne.rer will forget. Che rooming just before ¥.2 left TCNey, my sister canE ani she was as llhite as a sheet. She said, "My God, mere is Bullo?" We called him Bullo, that was his nickname. I said, "He is in back." She said, ''Oh, my God." I said, ''Vby?" She said, "Joe got up . . • " (that was her husband ) ''When Joe got up this rooming he said, 'Well, I wmt to tell you now, I couldn't have told you last night."' And she said, ''What?" He said, ''Your sister's husband will be hanging fran a tree right now." She said, ''You have to be kidding." ''No," he said , "they had it all made up, they ~re going to get him and lynch him ani hang him fran a tree. I ~dn't tell you because I knew if I told you that you ~uld be upset and you ~uld go dOWJ. there or SOOEthing. Wa can't get into it, ve are in business, you know." Ar:rl so I said, ''No," but that's mat the plans had been, they vere going to hang him. Ani this 'iAHS before he startai ~rld.ng. He 'iAHBn' t w:>rld.ng at the mine. Q: N:::>w, this 'iAHS 'iliih.en you first had rrovai? A: This is the first part of the IOCJV'anent dow:t there. Q: Vben you first IOOITai to Tovey? How long had you lived in Tovey? A: Well, wa livai in Tovey fran 1927 until 1932, 1933. So that's vhat, six years? Q: Was he v.orking in the mine during that time? A: Oh, yes, he v.orked in the mine all the tine ~ liva:l in TCNey. Q: So he hadn't gone back to the mine since the mine trouble, you ...ere saying? A: Yes, yes, yes. Q: I see. All right, 'iliihy did he decide to stay with the mines? A: Vby did he decide? Q: Yes. A: 'Ihis is the 'iAHY he said it '\<iihen they first starta:l that IOOITement, he said, ''Lena, I have got to, ~ neai the lD)[ley." Miners couldn't save anything because 'iliih.atever you savai then there v.ould C()[IE a strike and you YXmld loose 'lilhat you ha:i saved till then. You could always deperrl on that. Contracts ~re signed for tw:> years you always had to save toward April. Ani you didn't save just by dollars, you savai by nickels and dimes to have a little nest egg. If you had tw:> hurrlra:l dollars you ~re lucky. How long ~d tw:> l:u.m:ira:l dollars last back then? \-k liva:l in Tovey then for seven years fran 1927 to 1943 v.e llD'J'ed out of there. And, yes, he ~rked in the mine all of that. When the miners startai up, they started at one of the mines and I don't ranember if it was Seven or Q: Nine? A: Nine, Nine 'WaS that it? I believe it 'WaS Nine. Q: In langley, ~the first one to start back. A: Yes, then my husband went 01er there to w:>rk. And there was about, I ~going to say maybe about ten, fran TOlley that \onlldn't join the Progressives. Q: About ten people fran T011ey? A: About ten, I think, an:l so then of course, they dep.1tized them • . . Q: They deputize:! those ten liEn? A: Yes, they had to, they deputized all of them. You had to carry a gun for your ow:1. protection. This house here 'WaS firai into during the mine trouble rut the funny part of that is nobody knows ~t side did it. The Progressives will say the Mine 'W::>rkers did it an:i the Mine Vl>rkers will say that the Progressives did it. Q: You are saying now that yoo got fire or you got banbed? A: te ~re not living here at the time. Q: Oh, fired into by rullets? A: Yes, an:i I think it went through this front window 011er there an:i ~t through that wall an:i right over their heads. They were laying in bed arrl Flushes lived here at the time. Q: Vbat vas the nama of the people? A: Plesche. Q: Plesche. A: But Yohen 'iNe lived in TOlley I wasnIt bane men this happened. 'Ihen you have heard when they banbed Fred Eddy's house? Q: Tell IIE about it. En:l of Side Cbe, Tape Cbe A: Fred Eddy was an engineer at the mine. I don1 t know ~t he w:mld have done when he ~t 011er to Number Nine, I don1 t know if he \onlld have been an engineer there or not. 'Ihere is none of the F.ddys left around here either, rut anyway, we were just tw:> doors away from F.ddys when they were banbed. I wasn 1 t l'laiE at the time because I had an uncle that died in Spring Valley. I had gone to Spring Valley to the funeral. So my mother-in-law an:i father-in-law, .....tlo lived with us, were with the kids \oihen that happened. Vben Ruthy said to me, "Man, they are trying to get stories about the mine trouble." I said, ''VIlat can I tell about the mine trouble. '!hey better look at the Breeze Courier or the Journal. \ell, you could tell than about the banbing of ~e." Arid I said, "I wasn1 t home \oihen it happened." My lrusband said though, afterwards Wl.en it was all wer with, he said, "I will never go through with that again. I w:mld take you someplace else." But 1J:lat could he do? All he knew was the mine. The one year they ~re on strike, he v.Ellt to Chicago. He w:>rkai in a packing place, he stayed with his aunt. '!hen, Wl.en the mine started w:>rking, he came back. But if be had had to pay rent up there lie couldn't have made it. All be knew was the mines. Q: Vbat were the nanes of sane of the people in Tovey that stayed with the UMW? A: With the mine w:>rkers you rrean? Q: Yes. A: Roberts, there v.ere the Roberts, Lisses, F.ddys. Vbat was the French fellow here, oh, I can't remanber Yhat his nama was. 0 1Cornell , there 1 t are scme I can rananber. Q: That nane wa.s Connell or O'Connell? The guy you just told me about? A: O'Connell. Q: Your lrusband wa.s Irish too? A: Yes. Q: ware there any Italians that . . . A: United Mine W:>rkers? Q: Yes. A: 'Ihey could be lai, let's put it that way. "nlose poor Italians and 'Whatever, French or that, they could be led. 'lhat is the wa.y I am going to tell it. Q: But Vlo led than? A: 'Ihe leader like Leon Besson. 'Ihey ~re disgruntled lhited Mine W:>rkers that wanted to start this IID'ITem;mt. Q: Right. A: Leon Besson wa.s one of than and, of course, he was fran T011ey. So I would say he was the leader in Tovey. Lena Dougherty Q: Yes. A: Has anylxxly e~er IIEltioned him? Q: No. I haven1 t heard his n.aoe until now. A: \-ben ~ lived in Ta.~ey ~ lived behind the store. 'lW:> doors from our main street W3.S a IIIJV'ie house ani behirrl the liiJV'ie house there ~re roans, living roans. leon Besson lived in those roans and he -was one of the leaders. He -was a disgruntled United Mine W:>rker ani they ~re going to this new union. That -wasn't just put up in a day or tw:>, that had been maybe since the other one, the National Miner Union. Q: National Miners Union. A: Could have been fran that, e~en fran then. fu.t when they ~re going to make a march dow:1 on southern Illinois. They WJUld load all these women ani all the IIE1 in trucks ani cars and e~erything ani they ~re on their way dow:1 south. Q: Franklin County? A: You have heard of that, I am sure, because that was a big thing. The fellows \\Jere not going to get that far because they are 'Waiting for them there and they ~re going to tum them back. I think they got as far as Pinkneyville. Q: \e call it M.llkeytffi<lll, the area. A: All the trucks v.ere gone with the women arrl the IIE1 ani the cars and everything. We were on Main Street, so v.e got in on that, you know. We -weren't living back in Twey, v.e v.ere right on Main Street. I said, '"lli.ere is leon Besson, he didn't go with them." My sister said, "Are you crazy," she said, "he is going to let than get shot on, he is not going to be there." He just saw to it that they all got on their way and then he was sitting at hcrie. Q: Leon Besson 'WaS the leaier of the Progressives rut he didn't go to M.llkeytoWl. with them? A: He was one of the leaders of the Progressive liiJV'anent. Q: Now, W3.S he an Italian? A: NJ, he was French. Q: French. A: French. Leon didn1 t go with them, but I laughed. I told this story to the kids. Q: H:>w many women v.ent in that Mulkeytown? 21 A: All the Tovey w:xnen, all the TCNey w:men. Poor Nora Wilson, she'd never aren gone to the grocery store. She raised eight kids ani she stayed at home. And here I looked up and there is Nora Wilson. Q: I didn't know that many had gone with them, that is interesting. A: (h., yes, they ~re all hepped up. Q: Did they have any ~pons with than ~ they va1t doYD there? A: '!hat I don't know. '!hat I don't know. &lrely they w:~uld have had, I don't know. Q: vell, Leon Besson, you said , was one of the leaders in Tovey. Who were the other leaders? A: I don't know, that one I knew, that Leon Besson. Q: And you said that the group there, the Italians, were fairly easy to lead? Could you go on a little bit about that A: Nice people rut they were having a gocxi t:ine. 'lliey was having a good t:ine with these rallies ani all this bit. 'lhey had the soup kitchen, COl'l'e up with the soup kitchen. 'lhey sava:i w:xxi to keep themselves wann because they w:ruldn' t rum scab coal , you know. In fact, one of my neighbors doYD the street here got killed ~he fell out of a tree. I forget mat his name was. I didn't know lrlm at that time, fell out of a tree when they was cutting in the wxxis. It was, like I said, it was wintertime. 'lh.ey ha.:l to have heat ani they was burning green ~cxl. hlrning out their stoves with that green w:>cxl ani everything, rut they were having a gocxi time. They really were. My daughter, oldest d~ter, then was in secon:l grade and we were in Kincaid at that time. I don t ranember too rruch about the mine trouble because -we -weren't home. She said, ''Well, I remember they used to call me scab." lhey couldn't go on the street alone, they had to be with tw:> or three others like the Roberts. Vben we got into Kincaid there were quite a few mine 'tiiOrkers. But in Tovey there wasn't that many maybe, alx:mt ten. Q: How many -were there in Kincaid, \\bat percentage? A: I don't know, but I w:~uld say maybe about t-wenty families. Yes , I w:ruld say that. Q: '!hat's not very many out of the size the town Kincaid w:~.s. A: It wasn't too many, no. They were afraid, they "£re afraid to join the Mine Vbrkers. Just like, you take the people "£ used to live catty corner fran there. They "~Nere Litlruanian, could hardly talk An:Erican. Here in Bulpitt they were one of the first, he was Joe Makena.s, was one of the first that ~t. But they were afraid to go to the mine, they were afraid for their lives. Mrs. lvbGuiness said, ''When Joe started 'tliOrking at the mine we were so afraid he'd get killed." It was nasty, it was bad. lena Dougherty Q: Was your husban::l ever beaten or shot at? A: No, no, but I think they \ere kind of afraid of him. Q: Wly was that? A: Because Bulla was outsJ:X>ken. W:ta.t I rooan, he wasn't a person that w:mld be real shy. If he had sarething to say, he ~ld say it. When you ruwe respect for a person, you know ¥ilat I mean, just like you have your respect for your parents, I think that's III!iybe what the thing was. Q: Did your lulsban::l carry a gun Yhen he ~nt to VDrk? A: He had it in the car, he didn't have to have it to go do-m in the nrlne. Q: W:lere did he get the gun, did he buy it locally? A: I can't ren:enber that. I can't rem:mber that. We might have had one I don't remember. Q: Had you ever heard about Peal:xxly's selling guns to the VDrkers there in the mine? A: JiJ. Q: Okay. A: 'Ihey might have issua:l them, they might have issua:l them. I can't remember him ever buying one. Q: Okay, all right. A: fu.t they had to have it in the car because men they VDrked in Nt:mlber Nine they used to care through W:lat they called the bottans over there by Jeisyville. 'lhey were SO afraid mert they VDuld Efet down in then bottans that they WJUld be amb.Jshed, it 10\eS bad. You don t want to think about tbJse things, but vhat always burt me so bad, those \ere our frierrls, they were our friends. Like me in Tovey, I had been there for 'When I was like sixteen years old, I was a young la:iy. About 'What my luJ.sband said, "I will never go through that again." He said, "I ~ld take you all and vherever YJa could make a living, we wuld go. But ~~ld ne\Ter \ent through it again." Now, they are reaping the re-wards. Q: 'Ihe miners are? A: The miners are, now they are reaping the rewards of 'What these fellows went through. 'lbey can say what they want about John L. Lewis rut he was a smart man. He did a lot, a lot. 1he one time they were on strike and my neighbor next door got a letter fran one of her kids. I used to have to read the letters. She got a letter fran one of her kids that said that it was too bad that the guys ~re on strike here. I said to Mrs. Hann:>n, "You know," I said, " they are on strike yes, but they are going to have a little better pay out of this, you know. You might even get sanething out of this." Which she did then, because they started paying the widows. The new contract starte:i paying the widow, now this would have been, I don't know if it was the seven hour day v.hen they started that or not. In one of those things here about a seven hour day . . . Q: Yes, I will look through these, these are some of the contract booklets fran 1931, 1938, 1940 and 1945. A: D.:> you want to take these with you v.hen you leave . . . Q: I might look at them just a little bit if I could, especially this one, 1931. Okay. Cbe other thing I need to know about is , those Progressives that 't.Ere in TCNey, how many of than came back to work? A: You nean men they just kind of filtered back? I don't know, I don't know. Q: Did many of those that 't.Ere your frierrls go back to work? A: Yes, yes. Then vben one started, then another ~d and then another ~d. I know Lee Flouquet. See, lee Flouquet was a superintendent there \+.hen Bullo got his w:>rk • . . Q: 9J.perinterxlent in Tovey mine? A: I don't know if he was there during the mine trouble or not. He might have been, yes, he probably was. I think it was the French that started caning back first. I am going say the French did , starte:i coming back, rut I an going say it was nnre like Lee Flouquet's relations. He had a lot of relatives. Q: Now was he superinterrlent in Number Eight? A: Yes. Q: In TCNey? A: Yes. Q: Okay, so he might have dravn sane of them back into the mine? A: I think so, I think so, see I don't remember too "~Nell about that. Q: Okay. A: Of cause at that time 'lie were living in Kincaid. Q: Right. Now lee Flouquet, is that an Irish name? A: They were French but nice people. I never really neighborerl with them. Q: Vbat percentage of the people in Tovey "~Nere Italian? Lena Dougherty A: A lot of them. A lot of than -were Italian but a lot of French too. French ani Italian, I don't think too nuch of any other like the U.tlruanian. Th.is VBS U.tlUJanian not too many Italian here. Kincaid of course was hcxlge-podge. A lot of Americans in Kincaid. The French arxl Italian in Tovey. Q: Okay, I see. N:Jw, of those people that went Progressive in Tavey, did a lot of than never go back into mining again? A: I think they all went back. Q: You think they did. A: I would say all of them, yes. You see mat happened, the people li~Ere coming up fran the south. '!hey called than SWampies, W:la.t they called them am they TM:!re caning. Th.en they said, ''What are TNe going to do? We are not making headway." 'lhe Progressives, they waren't getting any m:>re mines, signing any mre mines. So they hai no alternative. Q: Did any of the people fran the south live in Tavey ¥ben they cane up here? A: NJ, they mostly settled up in Kincaid. Q: ~in Kincaid? A: They settled in Kincaid. Before we IllJ\Terl to Kincaid there vas a lot of Cc:IDpaily houses that had been b.lilt in Kincaid. And those houses TM:!re renterl for ten dollars a mnth or oelve. Th.at' s how we rented ours. If you cleane:l the house up yourself, it was ten dollars a m:>nth arrl then if they cleane:l it up it was twelve. So the house that -we \~lent into it 'Was a nice house. lhey were well b.lilt, those houses "Were \oilell b.lilt b.lt no basement to than. ve 'Went into a five rocm house and it had the ~ bedroans, a bathroan in between, a living roan, the dining roan arrl the kitchen. 'Ihen there were the six roan houses that hai the three bedroans ani dining roan, front roan. But three bedroans instead of t"WJ. When we went down to look at than, the wallpaper "WJuld be hanging. But the w:xxl w:>rk, the beautiful w:xxl w:>rk and floors. All of those houses were very, very nice houses. Well, then they w:>uld sell these houses. I an going to say, if I remenber right, the five roan houses went for five lumdrerl and eighty-five dollars. And the six roan houses I think were eight lum:lrerl. '1he Swampies, as they called than, were caning up fran the south. '!hey were 11XJ'J'ing into the Kincaid houses. Th.ere was plenty of houses. All the houses TNere empty ¥ben they b.lilt the houses for the miners. fu.t then the miners built their own houses mstly aver across the tracks and so these houses were all empty, you hai your pick. \ollen we went aver to Kincaid TNe coold have lived in any place in there. 'lhey were all real nice houses. Q: How did the camunity get along with the Swampies? A: Fine, great. You ha:l a little IIDre ccmpany as you'd call it. No, they are still here. Th.ere vasn't too many that left after they came, Lena Dougherty they are still here. 'Ihey are nice people, nice people. Sane we neighbore:l with, they cBIIE up fran Oklahana, one family the Orlandis. And Gus, poor Gus is dead now. \hen they c~ they had nothing and the mines were \\Urking every day. ve ~re making gocxi mmey. Gus decide:l he 'WBiltai to go back to Oklahoma and his wife said, "No way." She said, ''You want to go back hale you go, I em staying here." She is still here, they didn't go back, but they stayed and they are all right. Q: Now that's the Orlandis you are talking about? A: Yes. Q: Yes, I have heard about them. A: Joe Orlandi, that's one of the families too, Joe Orlandi was with the thited Mine Vbrkers. He was in the local. I think he use:l to be scxrething in the local. He "NB.S vice-president, I:Uke liiBS president. Q: Did any of the Orlandis go Progressive? A: ~. they all stayed with the United Mine W:>rkers. But there was Hilis and Stanfield, they ~re all United Mine W:>rkers. 'When ~ got to Kincaid it was a little bit different. Although there was shooting going on after ~ lived in Kincaid too rut I don't remember too nuch about it like \<bat I rea:l in the Breeze • Q: Yes. Can you think of any other Italians beside the Orlandis that stayed with the lhited Mine W:>rkers? A: Italian names? Q: '!hat w:ruld have stayed with the United Mine llirkers? A: Garrlalphi, Jolm Garrlalphi, he was a United Mine W:>rker. He was from Kincaid. Q: Was Tony Susan? A: ~, I can1 t renenber. 'Ihere was several Italian families from Kincaid that ~re with the Vbrkers. Q: lbw about Tony Susan? Have you wer heard of him? A: Yes, yes, he TNaS with the \\Urkers. Well , no, he was Progressive. Q: 0:1, was he? A: I don1 t 'kl:lcM, I don1 t know. Q: Yes, it is hard to say ... A: I don1 t know for sure, I don1 t know for sure. I think he was, I think. I think he was m::>re on the Progressive side. Lena Dougherty Q: Well, a lot of people started Progressive and then ~nt back quick. A: Yes, yes. Q: 'lhey ~re only out for a ~ek or bu. Well, tell ma about the Orlandis, I heard that they ~re into bootlegging quite a bit? was there ... A: l'b, you are talking about Orlandini. Q: Orlandini, okay . . . A: That's tw::> different men, but Orlandinis they are fran TOV"ey. N:lw Orlandinis lived dow:1 the street fran us vA:len ~ live:i in TOV"ey. And \<ben ~ -were back of the store, that's When the trouble started. Mrs. Orlandini was going by and, I never will forget this, and she was one of my closest friends. She said, ''Oh, them little scabs.11 My kids were playing outside, 110h, than little scabs.11 And I heard her. I said, ''You could do without saying that. 11 l'b, they were Progressives but the Orlandis weren't. The Orlandinis were. Q: Did the Orlandinis make a lot of nnney off bootlegging? A: I guess, they still make a lot of nnney. They h.ave been in brev.ery, Stag, Stag people. 'Ihey are still awful goo:i people, nice people, nice, nice people. Q: They give a lot of loans to the Progressives back then? Did they h.ave nnre mney than sane of the other? A: Ch, sure. I don't know W:lether they ever donate:i anything anyway, that I don't kn.c:M but . . . Q: I ha:i heard that they ha:i helpe:i the Borgognonies to get their start here in Bulpitt? A: ~Borgognoni started their tavern, I think that the mine w:>rkers were going in there. They 'llo2re Progressive but I think that the mine 'iii.Urkers started , I maan they were Q: They could go in? A: They could go in. I won't say for sure, I think. Q: Maybe for aWhile. All right that's interesting. Tell ma rwre about that your experiences then, your experiences back in the mine war days . A: I can't say that -we mixed up too uuch. Q: Did you stay at home a lot? A: Yes , always did , always did . Still do. 'Ihe on1y place I go is the post office and clu.trch. I am a hcmebody, yes. Q: 'lhen as mre people started caning back into the mine, things got better arouni here? A: Ch, yes. Q: Che thing I 'W'Ould like you to tell ne, if you can remember. I think it was in 1932 in U:tober in Kincaid, the high school students went out on strike because . . . A: I can't remember that. Q: D:m' t ranember that one. A: My kids v.ere too little. Q: Yes, you said one was in secorrl grade. A: That you have to get fran sooebody else. Q: I will get that. A: li.ke I said, v.1e v.Jere fran TOV"ey at that time. Q: Did you wer have nuch dealing with Langleyville? A: tb. Q: Never knew many people fran there? Your lUJ.sban:l, did he ever talk ab:Jut his YDrk nuch? A: Ch, yes. N:Jt so m.lCh like lrusband and wife. But vhen the fellows w:ruld be together ab:Jut shooting the coal and all that, that's all v.1e ever heard. Us kids, that's all v.e e1er heard fran miners. Q: Wlat did he say about his relationship with managarent? A: He didn't have any trouble. My lrusbarrl w:~.s a eager, when he first YDrked at Tovey. Vbrked ~re they took the coal in and out. He was a trip ... Q: Trip rider? A: Trip rider, trip rider, and then he got to be a eager. He was just right on the bottan there, signalled the engineer to hoist. That's v.hat he did, he w:~.s that the better part of our married life, that's v.hat he did. Ani that's what his father did before him, his father was a eager, in the other mines up north, of course. Otherwise, I think he YDrked all aver. I remember that he used to shoot coal. He loaded coal vhen he first 'W:>rked in the mine, v.hich was a hard, hard job. W:len he "W:Jrked in Auburn mines he was a loader. He loaded coal cars rut men he first YDrked in TOV"ey I forget v.hat they called that, but it was sho\Teling. can't remember v.hat they call that rut it wa.sn' t even coal, I think they were cleaning up like. Q: Like a dirt gang? A: Yes, and thatIs vbat he did at first. Then he ..-.vas a trip rider, rut he never did get to w:>rk on the machines. 'lhe machine 1000 made m:>re m:>ney. Q: Did he want to w:>rk on the machines? A: But he never did. I don't think he w:>rked on the machines. Q: Yes, did he e~er want to? A: N:J, not that I ever heard him say. Maybe he w::>uld have liked to on account of the m:>ney part rut still, I think he did w:>rk a little bit on the machines at sometime before he \<lent to be eager I think he did for a little mile, he w:>rkfrl on the machines. But he 'Wa.S a helper, m:>re like a helper ~ld be. Q: He 'W:>rke.d at Eight and then he \\Urke.d at Nine Yhen the mine war started, how long did he w:>rk at Nine? A: I don't know. I don't think that I have got that written down. Q: Did he e~er w:>rk at N.Jmber Ten over at Palnee? A: N:J. Q: Never did? A: W:ten Tovey closed then in Q: 1951 or 1952. A: 1954, 1954. N:J, he couldn't get on at N.miber Ten. He didn't try that hard, you know. So of course lie ~t into the tavern up here. Q: You bought a tavern? A: Yes. Q: W:ti.ch one 'Nas that? A: ve bought the tavern in 1946 I think it Vla.S. Q: VJh.at was the IlBIIE of the tavern? A: fu1lo's. fullo's Place. Q: Bullo. A: fut ~ ~re only there a year and a half in the tavern and then our youngest son died When he was fourteen years old. So after Billy died Y.Je put up the tavern, ~ came to the house here then. Then When Number Eight want doW~. I don't think he tried too hard. He was afraid of the mines. Q: was he? A: BJ.llo was really afraid of the mines and I think as he got older he was glal to be out of them. He helpe:l to dismantle Number Seven arrl Number Eight ani the Panther Creek mine in Aub.lrn. But he never cared about going into the mines with all the nechanism. Q: Was he ever injured? A: Hurt? Q: Yes. A: Cb, yes, he had a collar bone broke one time and then he got his back and one tinE he lost a finger. Yes, I think he was afraid of the mine. I never did hear him say but I just ... Q: \ollat did he do in 1954 then after that, did he retire? A: N::>, he didn't do anything then til 1957 and then 'INe bought a little grocery store because ~hal sam savings. Q: You bought the grocery store in 1957? A: 195 7, I am going to say. So 'INe had that then until he died, he died in 1966. Q: 'Ihen did you sell the store then? A: A year after, I kept it for one DDre year. Q: \bat was the name of the store? A: Dougherty, Dougherty's Market. It was just a little store. It wasn't a big store, it was just a little family store, that was all. We made a living, that was it. So then I kept that a year, 'INe had bought the building. So then I sold the building arrl after I sold the building then I could sell the merchandize and I got out of it. Q: He got a pension then, I w:>uld asSl..Dlle fran the mine? A: No, he had w:>rked enough years in the mine rut he didn't ~rk enough years in the last so many years. W:t.en they got this widows pension, I don't know ..t year that was, that they did that, but you had to have hal 'bml.ty years in bet'INeen this other date. He had w:>rked a lot of years because he started w:>rking in the mines W:ten he was fourteen years old. It ll:lBl11 t that he ha.:ln't -worked enough years in the mine but he needed, I think, six DDre DDnths ani then he could have gotten the pension. But he didn1 t even want to go to w:>rk for the six months so I know he was scare:! . (laughs) 'lbat was our married life then. Q: That is interesting. A: He died in 1966. Twenty years, it w::ruld be oenty years. He didn't make enough under social security fran the time they started it on account of the mines having been out in 1954. I forget men we started with social security, that's all in there too. lbt I was only getting seventy dollars a m:>nth for social security. I hcrl those savings but I didn't wmt to dip into that. So I got a job at the school cafeteria ani I worked there. Then he got the black lung. After he got the black lung ani then I thought . . . Q: Ch, goOO., you got the black lung benefits too then? And you are still getting that? A: Yes. Q: Yes. A: So then social security kept going up and up so men I first started getting it was seventy scma dollars a mnth and then Q: 'Uli.s is your benefits you got? A: Yes. '!bat's W:tat I am getting now. Q: $328 now, you had a $144 in 1970 . A: How nuch did I start getting on social security? Q: Started social security at $88 in 1969. A: Yes, but I still . Q: Ch, $77.80 in 1966, January. A: See, then it kept going up, and up and now I get W:tat? $344? Q: $344.36. A: I wish I could have got $340 a m:mth ~I -was raising my ld.dsl Q: You could have used it. How old were your children men they m::rved out? A: You mean vhen they got married and m::rved out? Q: Yes, how old was the last one? A: Jean is sixty years old, my oldest girl is sixty. She -was like twenty, twenty-btiO when she got uerried. Then Ruthy, Ruthy got married in 1955. Andy got married in 1955 and Judy got married 1968. Q: So how many children do you have total now? A: I have four children left. lena Dougherty Q: Four. How many did you have originally? A: Five. When Billy -was fourteen he dia:i, he dia:i 1934. Q: lbw far apart were your children spaca:i? A: In bet\Een Jeanne and Ruth there are three years ani a half. Then there is three years in bettEen Andy ani Ruthy, and there was three years in between Andrew and Billy. But then there -was seven or eight years in between Billy and Judy. Q: Did you plan things that way or .•. A: N::>, no, ( laughter) I ~uldn't have had any of them if I hai plarma:i . Q: Really? A: I would probably have had the first one, that ~uld have been it. (laughter) Q: All right, that is interesting. vell, I sure enjoyed talking to you. \E are going to be able to get a lot of use out of your notebook there. A: Yes, you will. You ~uldn't have to take any of this off. Q: Okay. A: Like the family tree I have gotten written up, I IOOaU ~ have that if the kids e~er wmt it, you know. Q: Cbe other thing I wanta:i to ask you about was religion in your family. Had your parents been religious? A: Catholics. Yes, but all the old people in the old country were, that's \'.here it originata:i, \'.here it all Ccm!S frcm. That's vbere it all starta:i. Q: vell' did they er.Ter describe mat the priests ~re like c:Ner in Italy? A: I don't know. Q: Did your father cont:inue to go to clrurch ~en he IDJV'a:i to this country? A: Not as nuch, not as nuch. Of course he dia:i a Christian, with the last rites and ererything. I think the w:xnen ~re always roore religious, even now. Wa were raisa:i in the cb..u:ch. Q: Was your busbani a Catholic? A: Yes, yes. Q: Yes, okay. A: His mother wasn't. N:>w, his mother die:l she was, grandma was ninety-five, Grandma Ik>ughtery was ninety-five years old v.hen she die:l in Aul:urn. She had lN3.nte:l to be burie:l by a Catholic priest, she always said she '0\Uuldn' t be a turn coat. She used to belong to the Ch.J.rch of Englarrl but she never v.ent to any clrurch as long as I rem:mbere:l her. So she wanted to be buried by Father Conrad, Who is the priest over there now, he still is. She had aske:i him, "Will you say a few ~rds?" He said, ''Oh, yes." So she was buried fran a funeral hme in Aul:urn but Father Conrad had the services. But Grandpa IXrugherty, he was Irish. He claimed Irish, he was born in Scottlarrl but he claimed Ireland. 11m't tell him that he was Scotch, no way. (laughter) He kisse:l the Blarney stone, v.hen he was a kid. He was a baby \<tlen he cane over; he didn't kiss the Blarney stone. (laughs) I laughed about it When I think about it. Another thing he w:~.s great to say, ''Man, man suffered," he said. ''Vhat do you maan, man suffered? You know, maybe your wife suffered but you didn't." ''No," he said, "they had to take a rib out of us to make you, to make a 'VDIIail, no, 'OE suffered .'' (laughter) I used to laugh at him. He was furmy. He was a nice old guy. Poor Grandpa Ibugherty, he was a nice fellow. No, 'OE never had any problem with religion. Th.ere 'OEre tw:> sons of Andy's. Che married out of the clrurch. He married in the M:!thodist in Springfield. Th.ey only lived together tw:> years and they 'OEre divorced. He is divorced yet. His brother, Dan was married in the Baptist clrurch in iliampaign. He was going to college in Cllarleston. Th.en later his wife converted to the Catholic religion. Q: Tell ue, v.ha.t role did the clrurch play here in this area during the mine war, did the priest take a stand? A: Father Hart came to our cln.rrch in 1933, he was a Chicago boy. I was just telling Arrlrew this \<tlen 'OE 'OEre talldng, the first sernnn that he gave he said, "I un:lerstand that I am caning into a canrunity Where you are feuding." Arrl he said, "I also want you to know that I am a boxer. Now, Whatever you have against ea::h other, you keep it out of the church. VJhen you cooe into the cln.rrch I will have none of it. If I have to, I will use my fist. 11 That is how he wanted it. Q: Never had to? A: Th.ey came to church, the Progressives and the United Mine Vbrkers. 'Ihen it WJUld cone wintertiDE and nobody was donating. The only ones that had the mney 'OEre the ones that v.ere w:>rldng. Father Hart '0\Uuld never talk mney fran the altar. I was telling this to Andy yesterday. It got into the winter and then, of course, v.e needed coal. So he came do\'ltl fran the altar and he said he was in need of coal to heat his church. He said I don't know how you want to do it. 'lhe United Mine W:>rkers then WJUld donate, like my lrusbanl, a ton of coal. So then the Sullivans, there 'Were four or five of than, w:>uld donate a ton of coal. fu.t that wasn't enough to keep the church for the winter. So Father another tiDE came do'lil1ll after the Mass was aver and he said, "I have to talk to you. Stay in your seats,11 or pews. ''Well," he said, "it's just this mJCh about it. If you are wanting to come to a ~church you are going to have to do sooething." He said, ''Now these four or five people (whoever Lena Dougherty it was) have donated rut it is not enough to last the winter. If you wmt it, you are going to have to figure it out the way you \<i18Ilt to donate, you are go~ to have to," he said. "I will just put rrore clothes on, it doesn t oother ne if it is cold. I can say a Ill9.SS anyway.'' But that's the way he w:>rded it, so he kept us on our toes. Q: Did they finally get coal for the church then? A: I guess they did because it was heated. (laughter) Q: Vben you 'Werlt to clurch did the Progressives ani the Ulited Mine ~rkers sit together? A: Yes, yes. I guess, I can't remanber that either, but I guess \\hen ~ were :in clurch "to.e were all one thing, you know. I couldn't speak for the tvethodist cl'ru.rch. 'lliere 1A7B.S only a Catholic church and a M:thodist church at that tilE. Q: Was that :in Tovey or in Kincaid1 A: 'Ibis is Kincaid. Twey hal their oWl little ~thodist clurch. Q: Okay, did they have a Catholic c1:urch in Tovey? A: No, they can:e to Kincaid. 1he people fran Tovey, Bulpitt, Jeiseyville, Number Nine all come to these churches here. Th.en the Church of God can:e in, the Nazarene c.:::me in, the Baptist came in ani so they got all them now. So, that's mat I said to Mrs. Wilson one time, she is a ~thodist. She always says, '"lou people." That is how she classifies everylx>dy. (laughter) ''You people," she said, "you contribute." "You contrilute a lot of IDJney," vtrl.ch they do, you know. I said , "You kn.ow", Audry, if all that goes to the Methodist cl'ru.rch in Tovey, the ones that go up here, the ones that go to Orurch of Q:xl, the ones that go to the Baptist or to Nazarene, you all barrled together you w:>uld have rrore congregation than we have." I said, ''We are just one, rut you are a lot." She said, ''You know, I ne.rer thought about that." (laughter) I said, "SUre." Which is the truth. I can't remember we just sat vklere wa wantai to. I don't think there 1A7B.S any difference there. Q: Now, WiB that the SanE priest throughout the mine trouble? A: Yes, he was here for thirty years. He 1A7B.S here for all the mine trouble. He \e.S here for thirty years, Father Hart, he never went for another clru.rch. 'Ihey hal wantai to llD\Te him a lot of times but he said no, he wante.:l to stay right here. No, we W him until he died. But he laid the law down soon when he c~. He said I want no part of it. So they ha:l respect for him, ani you hai to respect him. Fnd of Side Two, Tape One
|Title||Dougherty, Lena - Interview and Memoir|
Coal Mines and Mining
Mulkeytown (Ill.)--Coal Miners' March, 1932
|Description||Lena Dougherty, daughter of an Italian immigrant coal miner and wife of a Southern Illinois coal miner, recalls her family background and childhood near Auburn, Illinois: education, immigrant neighborhood, and marriage. She discusses the problems between the PMA and UMW, the effect on the residents of Tovey, problems faced by the families of miners, violence between unions, the Mulkeytown march, role of the Catholic Church in Kincaid during the dispute, and her husband's work in the mines. She also briefly discusses Mr. Dougherty's death by black lung disease and the benefits provided by the union.|
|Creator||Dougherty, Lena b. 1903|
|Contributing Institution||Oral History Collection, Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield|
|Contributors||Corley, Kevin [interviewer]|
|Digital Format||PDF; MP3|
|Relation||ILLINOIS COAL: THE LEGACY OF AN INDUSTRIAL SOCIETY|
|Rights||© Board of Trustees of the University of Illinois. For permission to reproduce, distribute, or otherwise use this material, please contact: Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield, One University Plaza, MS BRK 140, Springfield IL 62703-5407. Phone: (217) 206-6520. http://library.uis.edu/archives/index.html|
|Title||Lena Dougherty Memoir|
|Source||Lena Dougherty Memoir.pdf|
|Rights||© Board of Trustees of the University of Illinois. For permission to reproduce, distribute, or otherwise use this material, please contact: Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield, One University Plaza, MS BRK 140, Springfield IL 62703-5407. Phone: (217) 206-6520. http://library.uis.edu/archives/index.html|
University of Illinois at Springfield
Norris L Brookens Library
Lena Dougherty Memoir
D744. Dougherty, Lena b. 1903 Interview and memoir 1 tape, 90 mins., 33 pp.
ILLINOIS COAL: THE LEGACY OF AN INDUSTRIAL SOCIETY
Lena Dougherty, daughter of an Italian immigrant coal miner and wife of a Southern Illinois coal miner, recalls her family background and childhood near Auburn, Illinois: education, immigrant neighborhood, and marriage. She discusses the problems between the PMA and UMW, the effect on the residents of Tovey, problems faced by the families of miners, violence between unions, the Mulkeytown march, role of the Catholic Church in Kincaid during the dispute, and her husband's work in the mines. She also briefly discusses Mr. Dougherty's death by black lung disease and the benefits provided by the union.
Interview by Kevin Corley, 1986 OPEN See collateral file: interviewer's notes, photocopy of Lena Dougherty's family history, photocopy of Dougherty's journal.
Archives/Special Collections LIB 144
University of Illinois at Springfield
One University Plaza, MS BRK 140
Springfield IL 62703-5407
© 1986 University of Illinois Board of Trustees
'lhi.s manuscript is the product of a tape recorded :interview conducted by Kev:in Corley on the history of coal mining :in southern Illinois. 1he project YBS sponsored by the Illinois State Historical Society arrl funded
in part by the Illinois Humanities Council and the National Endo'Wlrent for the lilmani.ties. Mditional support cane fran the Oral History Office of Sangam:m State University. Elsebeth Buckley transcribed the tapes and SUsan Jones edited the transcript.
Angeline Marie ''Lena" Doughterty grew up :in Auburn, Illinois. Her husband ~a miner during the Mine Wars of the 1930's. In this rn.em:>ir Mrs. Doughtery discusses the problems she arrl her family faced during the mine wars arrl the violence that occurred. She also discusses her parents and her children.
Readers of the oral history maooir should bear :in mirrl that it is a transcript of the spoken "W:>rd, ani that the interviewar, narrator and editor sought to preserve the infonna.l, conversational style that is inherent in such historical sources. Sangannn State University an:l the Illinois State Historical Library are not responsible for the factual accuracy of the meo:oir, nor for views expressed therein; these are for the realer to judge.
Th.e manuscript may be read, quoted an:l cited freely. It may not be reproduced :in whole or :in part by any IIEBilS, electronic or rrechanical, without permission :in writing fran the Oral History Office, Sanganon State University, Springfield, Illinois, 62708.
Lena Dougherty, Bulpitt, Illinois, July 31, 1986. Kevin Corley, Interviewar.
Q: Mrs. Ik>ugherty, w:ruld you please state your full name?
A: Angeline Dougherty.
Q: W:lat 's your middle name?
Q: Angeline Marie Dougherty. Vby do you go by lena?
A: Since I have been a child they have always called rre Lena. They took the en:i off of Angeline and just called rre Lena.
Q: Okay, now your first nanE, how is it spelled? Angeline?
Q: Wlat vas the ti.ne of your birth?
A: October 10, 1903.
Q: Arx:l where were you bom?
A: In South Wilmington, Illinois.
Q: South Wilmington. How long did you live there in South Wilmington?
A: Well, until 1920, so I was not quite seventeen.
Q: Now what did your father do for a living?
A: He 'WaS a miner .
Q: Wlat mines did he work in?
A: 'Ihe coal mines up north rJll.ch are very low, the coal was very low in those mines. That's where Dad Yl:>rke:l arrl my older brothers Yl:>rked in the mines.
Q: IX> you know the names of those mines?
A: No, I don't have any idea.
Q: How many brothers and sisters do you have?
A: I have nine brothers and sisters.
Q: Ch, my gooiness.
A: 'lhat's a big family. 'Ihere was five girls and five boys.
Q: were you in the middle, the first or the last?
A: I was the sixth.
Q: Vllen you ~re growing up you say your brothers ~nt to \